this post was submitted on 14 Apr 2026
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A couple of questions because I'm still uneducated on these things:

  • Why do anarchists hate Marxists?
  • Are anarchists and ultras the same thing?
  • Are Trotskyists ultras and do they dislike Marxists?
  • What are the differences between Trotskyists, Maoists and Hoxhaists? Are any of them comrades?
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[–] CriticalResist8@lemmygrad.ml 35 points 1 month ago (2 children)

1- Anarchists start from the individual whereas marxists start from the class as a whole. This is the major, starting theoretical difference between the two. Accordingly anarchists take an individualist position. Some anarchists may rightly point out that these hyper-individualist anarchists are not real anarchists or not representative, but they still exist and still claim anarchism, because anarchism has no platform and single coherent body of theory because, again, anarchism is individualist. Platformism, which was an attempt around the time of the october revolution to rally anarchists under a political platform (with a programme and everything), failed as quickly as it started.

In my experience anarchists also tend to take a contradictory position on everything just so they can stick it to the man. I know an anarchist IRL and he's insufferable, his whole thing is just saying the opposite of whatever a political group promotes. This includes the neoliberal state but also the marxists.

As for hate, depends what you mean by hate specifically but because of this individualist position they go against any form of authority that is not their own 🤷‍♂️

2- they can be yes. ultra-leftism is a label used to mean dogmatism or adventurism, there's a little more history to it but that's how it's mostly used today. Ultra is broader though, for example leftcoms (leftcoms are usually Bordigists if you want to get into it) are ultras too. Ultra generally means unwilling to budge on the theory (i.e. the dogmatism).

If you're asking because of how we have !shitreactionariessay@lemmygrad.ml and !shitultrassay@lemmygrad.ml on lemmygrad, this was mostly to make a difference between right-wingers/centrists and left-wingers in two different communities that already existed, that's why it's named shit ultras say.

3- Trotskyists are out there doing their own weird thing lol. Some of them could be considered ultras but I mainly see them as a cult I'm not gonna lie. So much weirdness around trots, like how many of them became neocons. They usually appeal to academics (seriously look in trot parties it's mostly academics), I guess because in a way it allows them to claim marxism without the baggage surrounding it. they're not necessarily always wrong, I've appreciated some historical writings of trotskyists. But as soon as it gets a little bit too close to the 20th century and beyond, it's just brainworms lol.

Do they dislike marxists? Not necessarily, but they have this entire thing about stalinism and the purity of lenin and trotsky had completely nonsensical theory mired in his petty bouge upbringing and point of view. Permanent revolution was dumb, it would have destroyed the revolution, and it's a good thing the party did not listen to him (he wanted to repress the peasantry instead of allying with them on the off-chance that the german workers, who were close to having their own revolution at the time but was put down by the proto-nazis, would come to their help during the repression). So clearly with a theory so wrong you have to wonder why people would still claim his legacy - it's clearly not for the theory.

They also just have trotsky on their mouth and no one else it's weird. Sometimes they might bring up Marx, Engels or even Lenin (because of the split between Trotsky and Stalin that they tie back to Lenin and the faked "will") and they don't necessarily handle them wrong, it's just you can tell it's sort of an after-thought or quote mining instead of putting Marx back as a whole person who lived and wrote in a certain context. They really just want to talk about Trotsky all the time when the guy was a huge failson. They claim it was stalinist repression to purge him from the party when Stalin was obviously not the only one deciding this lol. Everyone hated him by that point in the CPSU. Pass.

4- Maoism was invented by Gonzalo of the Shining Path in the 80s, which he envisioned as the next stage of communist theory just like we had Stalin synthesize marxism-leninism with the advances made by Lenin. This is highly disputed because an exhaustive reading of Mao will show he did not do things sufficiently differently from Lenin and the bolsheviks to warrant his praxis being considered a universal, settled advancement over marxism-leninism. A lot of what Mao operated on was already done by the Bolsheviks (e.g. organizing the peasantry as we saw), he just pushed it a little bit deeper and according to China's material conditions. So the point of promoting MLM was clearly different than the stated objective. Some can be placed back to the Sino-Soviet split, according to Andréo Matias the CIA distributed Mao's Quotations in south american universities back at the time of the split. A lot of maoists I know seem to exist entirely online and are very disturbed individuals, wanting to commit violence for the slightest perceived offense on them. Jose Sison, of the CPP (Philippines) and the NPA later softly distanced himself from maoism without saying it as such, and this got him the ire of the maoists who denounced him -- reminder that maoism as gonzalo synthesized it has not yet produced a successful revolution, and has only existed since the 80s. It's kinda putting the cart before the horse. You could call them adventurists.

Like I don't deny protracted warfare exists (it happened in China and in Vietnam for two examples), I just don't think that it's something you provoke but rather something you are dealt.

But yeah Sison explained that in the west because of the military apparatus our protracted war would first begin with our protests and marches before being armed etc. this is just normal lenin stuff. Whether you want to consider that part of the struggle protracted people's war is up to you. But that's one thing that got other (western) maoists to denounce him despite that he was the only one out there actually waging revolution. Or, well, Sison had been living in 'exile' the Netherlands for decades while the NPA continued its operations in the Philippines, so I don't know if I would say he was actually out there doing stuff lol. But regardless, Losurdo was right: in the west our marxism is mostly theoretical and becomes concerned with our theoretical purity and adherence to the "rules". You have Swedish maoists, who have probably never once held a gun in their hands, giving lessons to Sison on how to conduct protracted warfare lol. They may be right theoretically but theory is meant to be applied.

Hoxhaists are ultras in a similar way as trots. Quote-mining a lot and dogmatic on their "anti-revisionism" because hoxha kept talking about being "anti-revisionist" because he was salty about stuff. China stops sending him money aid, he calls them revisionist. Stalin dies, he calls USSR revisionist. Once again refusing to place it back in the context in which Hoxha and his writings existed. That's a problem of depending too much on a single figure imo, but it's obviously also deeper than just that. Like all I ever see them do is rant about revisionism and basing it all entirely on one single figure -- not even a person, because I never see them talk about Hoxha as a person like where he came from, how he came to lead Albania and what he did there etc -- just the safety of having an authority figure give them justification to call everyone else revisionist. Well I'm against revisionism too, I just think that China isn't revisionist lol.

We follow Lenin because he fucking succeeded, that's what it boils down to. So clearly he knows a thing or two about making socialism happen.

[–] LeninZedong@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

One Maoist I used to talk with supported the Khmer Rouge and refused to explain why. Also, is there a habit with Maoists calling people or countries fascist at a much higher rate than Marxist-Leninists? I think I remember the program for the Peruvian Maoists or whatever calling the Soviet Union fascist (...what?).

[–] CriticalResist8@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I would be veering into armchair psychology trying to decipher maoists lol. but I remember one thing the Shining Path did was hang dead dogs from lam posts in Lima when Deng was elected... in China. Gives you an idea of who they are.

Doesn't help that there's also maoism, marxism-leninism-maoism, and marxism-leninism-maoism principally maoism (that last one is what gonzalo claimed iirc). maoism also existed in china as what we call mao zedong thought, note that the CPC is not claiming maoism anymore (i.e. MZT) but is officially following socialism with chinese characteristics.

I'm lucky enough that I don't know any maoists irl (conversely I know of at least one hoxhaist in my old party), for my safety I would never want to be around anyone calling themselves MLM. Not even as a sectarian thing just literally would not trust these people whatsoever.

[–] LeninZedong@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Me neither. I am not sure what would happen if I met a Maoist in real life (I might explode from the awkwardness lol).

[–] znsh@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I haven't met a Trotskyist, Maoist or Hoxhaist ever, not that they would necessary identify themselves as that. But I have met plenty of "anarchists", mostly punks with no clear ideology, they were nice and kind, probably because they didn't have a clear ideology of anarchism lol.

[–] LeninZedong@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 1 month ago

Maoists are probably the least outwardly weird... until you get to know them, and then their weirdness comes out (like being weirdly fond of Gonzalo).

[–] znsh@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Anarchists start from the individual whereas marxists start from the class as a whole. This is the major, starting theoretical difference between the two.

This really clarified it thank you.

If you’re asking because of how we have !shitreactionariessay@lemmygrad.ml and !shitultrassay@lemmygrad.ml on lemmygrad, this was mostly to make a difference between right-wingers/centrists and left-wingers in two different communities that already existed, that’s why it’s named shit ultras say.

Yes this was partly the reason and also because I need the knowledge to explain to people the differences between all of these groups.

We follow Lenin because he fucking succeeded, that’s what it boils down to. So clearly he knows a thing or two about making socialism happen.

Really good quote, I'll be stealing this if it's okay with you <3

Thanks for the write up, answered all the questions!

[–] LeninZedong@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

I hope I was helpful too (though I admit that I really should have left it to others more informed peeps).

[–] znsh@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 month ago

You were! I just now got done reading all of the comments/responses and haven't had proper time to respond to everyone (mostly due to not knowing what to say/being uneducated or because I don't have time/brain space to properly type out a response). But thank you too of course!

[–] DonLongSchlong@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Nah bro, you should write out your answer as best as you can (maybe preemptively tell OP that you are not as secure in your answer as you want to be though) and then other, more informed peeps, can correct you if necessary or you just compare their answers to yours.

There is only one way to get better at writing out information.

[–] Maeve@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 1 month ago
[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 26 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

Anarchists are idealists who believe that you can willpower communism into existence. Marxists understand that the transition to communism is a material process. Anarchists are ideologically opposed to the state. Marxists understand that the state is a tool.

Anarchists can be called ultras in a broader sense because all ultra-leftists share an ideological belief in the power of mind over matter. In Marxist terms, they are idealists. They do not engage in material analysis and believe that dogmatic purity is more important than a scientific outlook on reality.

Trotskyism is an ultra-left deviation of Marxism. Trotskyists call themselves Marxists and Leninists, and they claim to agree with Marx and Lenin in theory, but they reject the application of Marxism-Leninism as it has been practiced so far in every socialist state.

Maoism (which is distinct from and not the same thing as Mao Zendong Thought, which is what the Communist Party of China adheres to) and Hoxhaism are also ultra-leftist deviations. Both are opposed to what they see as revisionism, but which MLs see as practical and pragmatic reforms or tactical maneuvers.

Trotskyists, Maoists and Hoxhaists can be comrades in certain circumstances, as can anarchists, while not being comrades in other circumstances. It depends on the specific cause or activity that you are engaged in. For example, a United Front can sometimes be formed with them for anti-fascist protests.

Marxist-Leninists should work together, even temporarily, with any leftist group in cases where our goals align. Unfortunately, many ultras do not share this same viewpoint, are much more dogmatic and will go to great lengths to sabotage Marxist-Leninists, even if it means sabotaging themselves.

[–] burlemarx@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Speaking of trots, since trot orgs are very common in Brazil, I think their stance on things is very different. There are some trots that command certain unions and are in touch with actual working class people, so I wouldn't say it's focused only in academics. I think this approach of Marxist academics thing is more of a Western thing than a ML x Trot thing. And not all trots delve too much on Trotsky, many are good readers of Marx and Lenin as well.

The thing which actually pisses me off on Trots is that they regard every existing socialist experience a failure and a degeneration. For me this is about throwing reality in the garbage while claiming some sort of ideal Marxism (or Leninism) that only exist in their heads. This kind of thinking just makes a socialism revolution impossible and when you propagandize other working people who aren't Marxists with this rhetoric, the logical conclusion that many people take is "Hey, if revolution never worked before, why the hell will it work in the future?". So, basically this ends up being a defeatist discourse that even makes Trots themselves fight a lot and abandon their previous parties to now create a new party with the right line because every other line is Stalinist/degeneration.

Now regarding dogmatism, I think this is a disease that is spread out in the whole Marxist field, and it's hard to fight. People like to cite Marx as if it is some kind of sacred text, that needs to be interpreted literally and everyone that makes a deviation of the perceived "main" interpretation is a revisionist degeneration. It's kinda like every author following Marx, Engels and Lenin never said any contradictory stuff and even if reality does not match theory then it's revisionism. It's not as if Marx himself changed his mind of the revolution starting in Europe vs the rest of the world, given that he had much more experience and actual praxis when he was older, when he could do a better analysis with more data and experience. So this leaves many Marxist orgs with the habit of splitting and denouncing each other over very minor differences in tactics.

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 1 month ago

The thing which actually pisses me off on Trots is that they regard every existing socialist experience a failure and a degeneration. For me this is about throwing reality in the garbage while claiming some sort of ideal Marxism (or Leninism) that only exist in their heads. This kind of thinking just makes a socialism revolution impossible and when you propagandize other working people who aren't Marxists with this rhetoric, the logical conclusion that many people take is "Hey, if revolution never worked before, why the hell will it work in the future?". So, basically this ends up being a defeatist discourse that even makes Trots themselves fight a lot and abandon their previous parties to now create a new party with the right line because every other line is Stalinist/degeneration.

I completely agree.

[–] prof_tincoa@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Trotskyism is an ultra-left deviation of Marxism.

I've also seen: Trotskyism is a right deviation that disguises itself as a left deviation.

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 1 month ago

I would like an explanation of this.

[–] Emmi@lemmygrad.ml 21 points 1 month ago (2 children)

The disregard for actually existing socialist states by the compatible left is what bothers me the most. They are usually always in western countries and are therefore in favour of the status quo whether directly or indirectly.

[–] cornishon@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 1 month ago

This is a very important point. Others have already said about what distinguishes all those different tendencies from each other, but what they largely have in common is the rejection of Actually Existing Socialism.

[–] znsh@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 1 month ago

Yeah I've noticed this common trend among them of being against AES.

[–] LeninZedong@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Anarchists do not support a transitionary state between capitalism and communism, while Marxists do. You can describe the relationship between them as hatred in certain scenarios, but to answer you question more clearly, it is more accurate to say that anarchists might view Marxists as "authoritarians" (yet they are willing to believe the myths conjured by "authoritarian" capitalists).

[–] znsh@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 1 month ago (3 children)

So they don't support socialism or just the transitionary state?

[–] sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml 14 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

They support a stateless, classless, moneyless society which is a shared end goal in the broad sense. The primary difference is that they believe than can establish that sort of society without building a transitionary state to defend against counterrevolution.

[–] Cowbee@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 1 month ago

They don't support the same end goal, anarchism is about communalization while Marxists point towards gradual collectivization. It isn't just the transition, but the end goal, where anarchists want decentralized communes and not a unified, stateless system based on a common plan. The terms "stateless, classless, and moneyless" both apply to Marxism and anarchism from their own perspectives, but not towards each other.

[–] LeninZedong@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Which makes no sense to me, but I have not read anarchist theory so who knows.

[–] DonLongSchlong@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The theory usually ranges from "no state, no hierarchy ever!" To "no state, no unjustified hierarchy! (no hierarchy is justified tho)" and finally "no state, no hierarchy, but explains functions of state and hierarchy"

[–] LeninZedong@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 1 month ago

Could you elaborate on the final point? What do you mean by that?

[–] LeninZedong@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I am not sure on the exact details, but I know they do not support socialism because socialism is a transitionary state between capitalism and communism.

Edit: I should have clarified better, but the person with shark in the name gave a better definition.

[–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 month ago

Basically, they reject the transitionary state, and want to speed run right to Communism

[–] Calfpupa@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 month ago

Doesn't quite answer your question, but it looks like it's very well covered already. This article is a good general starting point for learning about Marxism vs the other general theories.

[–] QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Anarchists typically do not self identify as ultras. Those that tend to use that label are those on the Italian Left, Council Communists, Situationists, and Communizers.

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Revisionists don't self-identify as revisionists either but they are nonetheless revisionist. Many ultra-leftists don't identify as ultra but they still are.

[–] QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I don’t think most people on here understand that there are people who self identify as “ultra leftist.” Those people have arguments of varying strength that most folks here are completely ignorant of.