Late Stage Capitalism
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Introduction to Socialism (external links)
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So what’s the answer? We can complain about people not doing what you want, but what do you suggest?
did you not look at the image?
We could stop the money printing that debases salaries and encourages massive debt accumulation that eventually leads to collapse?
Imagine if you didn't need a raise and your wage went up with technological advancement and efficiency gains, where your employer had to cut your salary every year for inflation adjustment.
But my capitalist indoctrination said that not shoveling cash at the wealthy is what caused the Great Depression! Everybody knows that!
How else could we financialize everything, building a wall of debt in front of inelastic goods like housing, forcing people to take on a lifetime of debt so the rich can attain more wealth on the backs of the poor.
Its not what I want, there is an effective way to protest and then theres these no kings echo chamber parades.
Genuine question - what makes the No Kings protests ineffective (and not in a sense of "this won't overthrow the oligarchy" but in a sense of "this doesn't help at all"?)
What makes it effective? Minneapolis got Kristi Noem fired, what has No Kings ever done? What could it ever do?
An effective protest needs some kind of actual action to pressure the ruling class; labor stoppage, boycott, public disruption, etc. Instead, the No Kings protest is designed to never inconvenience any businesses or inhibit the functions of government. The ruling class could allow a No Kings protest every day and it wouldn't bother them at all, because it doesn't actually do anything.
No Kings is a pep rally.
Fair enough. I'm just wondering if a pep rally has its uses, too...
It does, it's a networking event that helps people find each other and gets apolitical people used to the idea of taking to the streets.
The only way that works is if they go and do something that matters after No Kings. Unfortunately, people show up for No Kings and then nothing else, and then pat themselves on the back like they're fucking heroes because they went to a pep rally.
Even then, no one is going to be stopped from doing more because of No Kings, anyone who attends it and thinks they're done has clearly done as much as they were ever going to do.
I think it does. One problem we're facing is that many people are just apathetic and keep to themselves instead of doing literally anything. Protests like these are for many people the first political protest ever in their lives. Are they gonna overthrow Trump? No. But they're a stepping stone. People feel what it feels like to be part of something bigger, and will potentially be willing to do more. And I know that there's leftist groups attending to inform people about further, more effective actions.
I think people who complain about No Kings not doing anything are kind of insufferable. People always complained that liberals don't do enough and don't want to listen. Now that's changing, and instead of using the opportunity to have conversations with them about how all this came to be and what's necessary, they're being shamed. I used to be apolitical, had I not be welcomed by empathetic people I probably wouldn't be active today. I want to pay that forward.
Liberals are the insufferable ones, they believe they've attended a protest and something will happen. When they are told what's necessary to get the change they want they close down and refuse to listen because they know how things work. They believe their single day, couple of hours, event will force change. The only thing that the media will report is the size of the crowds, because there is nothing else to report.
Unfortunately, meaningful change will require working with - and being willing to reconsider our views about - people we find insufferable.
It's not us that needs to reconsider our views, it's liberals and their arrogant hubris that refuse to change. They claim to want change but within the parameters of the existing system. Leftists and liberals don't want the same outcomes.
I agree that they are the ones that need to change, but we need to reconsider our approach on getting them to do so. The current approach doesn't seem to be working very well.
They have no demands or consequences laid out if those demands are not met, they have no clearly outlined goals or mission. A 3 hour event every few months isn't inconveniencing any of the power structure or a threat to the status quo. Their ridiculously proposed 1 day general strike on May 1 will do nothing either as people will shift their purchases to another day. Anything other than a prolonged protest and general strike, with clear demands and goals, nothing will be accomplished.
It's a pressure release value to prevent an actual uprising
I don't know, calling for a general strike on May 1 seems pretty big.
You know, I don't think you're right about that. Doing a one day general strike does a couple things. The first is just make it easier for people to protest. If no one is buying things anyway, why even show up for work? The second is to prepare people for what a longer general strike would be like. There will be things that you don't realize you buy without thinking. And it also challenges people to use what they already have or go without. And the third is that is still affects the numbers. If you don't buy it today like you were planning... You might not buy it tomorrow either. Maybe you forget. Maybe you find an alternative. Plans can be cancelled for that day or week because of the logistics.
But, why don't I just ask what you would rather happen instead? Because you post all over here and tantrum but you don't really want to reveal what you actually want.
That's a lot of maybes for situations that won't happen. What does happen is people will either buy what they need the day before, the day after or on the actual day. Most of them are not engaging in an act of protest but an act of socializing. To many this is treated like a back yard party and not means for change and the oligarchy prefers it that way. It's not a threat to their existence or harms profits.
Is socializing somehow counter or inhibitive to protesting? And are you basing this off firsthand experience or what's portrayed in the media?
I've been actively organizing and mobilizing protest and community action since the 80s. This is from first hand experience
There were a number of people helping organize protests and community action at our No King's protest. Were you not involved with that? It seems like this particular socializing was helpful for recruiting and spreading a message, but you seem to be against it. Why? This would be (and was) a prime opportunity for it.
It's not helpful for recruiting. Most people get over stimulated in large crowds and experience short term memory retention and cognitive fatigue. They may agree with everything you said in that moment and the brain filters it out shortly afterwards. Baby leftists have been chasing liberals at these type events for the years with no progress.
So, it's for socializing, but also most people get over stimulated in large crowds? I suspect, then, that you must experience extreme difficulty in recruiting.
What does a protest look like to you? Clearly, this one is for baby leftists, whatever that is, but you must have an idea of what a protest is, then.
I've been doing it since Ronald Reagan and ACTUP, so I've got quite a bit of experience on what works and what doesnt
Okay, what is a protest to you? I'm not sure what you want out of a protest?
A protest has demands, the type of actions they want to see as a result of protesting. There needs to be the threat of consequences. There needs to be a disruption of the status quo and an inconvenience to society that can't be ignored. And by no means can the cops be on your side
I don't see how that doesn't include No King's. Unless you have some more definitions for threats of consequences. Because a bunch of people showing up somewhere is, by its nature, both disruptive and consequential, and it does have a list of demands. Plus, I don't really think the cops being on your side or not is necessary for a protest, since the police can also protest, even if it's for a cause you don't agree with.
The fact they only happen a couple times a year for a single day and only on weekends makes them pretty damn ineffective.
I mean, being ineffective is the default. Something needs to be somehow exceptional to be effective (or we wouldn't need to do anything at all). It's like medicine; when someone suggests a treatment to a disease we expect them to prove that it works before we debate its usefulness. So in that vein, what kind of effect should we expect the sixth round of No Kings to have?
Same as every other round: getting people who are vocally against the situation together in one place so they can connect. The protest isn't the end goal, the protest is a networking opportunity.
Okay there are three problems with this:
It's not being sold as that; it's being sold as actual resistance against the Trump regime.
There's a fundamental limit on the effectiveness of this, since there's a limited number of people who are vocally against the situation and willing to do something about it. One would expect this limit to be reached by the fifth time, meaning the time is ripe for a change in strategy.
When are we going to see the effects of the last five rounds? For the most part the level of resistance has stayed the same for the last 9 or so months outside of maybe Minneapolis, and the determining factor was ICE presence more than anything else. There's just no evidence that No Kings has really done anything.
They are effective in hijacking and sheepdogging.
Make sure they can vent and sublimate their anger in a non-threathening way by having their Sunday walks with edgy signs.
And mostly that they do nothing else and wait only a few years when they can finally have their crushing revenge by voting for the next 'leftist' corporate dem.
Surely this time it will be different.
Says who? Your interpretation of it as such is your own business. And even if it were "sold" as such, that does not diminish the real value of networking.
Says who? Each event is a new opportunity for new people to join, it's a new opportunity for repeat attendees to meet even more of each other.
I personally know several people who have become more involved in various direct action groups as an immediate consequence of going to these rallies. Just because you personally aren't seeing the result doesn't mean it isn't happening.
Have you seen how people talk about these protests? Maybe there's a silent majority of people who know they're going to a glorified resistance-themed hangout, but then again maybe there's actually a yeti on Mars and we just haven't seen it yet.
Networking only has value if you know it's merely networking; it can never be a substitute for real work.
Like I said, there's a fundamental limit on the supply of new people.
Which they should be able to do in the direct action the first five rounds of No Kings have presumably gotten them started on.
What kind of direct action?
Sure, but it means there's not enough results.
Says who? Plenty of things work without people understanding their true nature.
There's zero evidence that we're anywhere even remotely close to that limit. Every one of these had been bigger than the previous one.
How about you start your own multi-million person resistance movement and start getting your own results, instead of griping about how No Kings isn't doing things the way you'd personally do them.
You seem so confident in your assessment of how things should be happening, surely you can whip up a proper direct action movement real quick, and then the No Kings participants will see how superior your movement is.
Let me know when the first event will be.