Europe
Europe community on dbzer0. Intended to be a place to discuss European news, politics, or just general topics from a European perspective. Since this is on dbzer0 expect the community to lean more leftist-anarchist but a wide range of views are accepted here (within reason).
Rules:
1. No Bigotry
Any forms of Homophobia, Transphobia, Queerphobia, Racism, or Ableism will be met with swift and harsh action and will not be tolerated here whatsoever. Bigots will be banned immediately on-sight. This includes apologia of it.
2. No Zionism
Any forms of Zionism or Zionist rhetoric will not be tolerated here, this includes Zionist apologia, accusations of antisemitism towards anti-Zionists, or blatant denial or downplaying of the genocide towards Palestinians. Any attempt to uphold or prop up the IHRA definition of antisemitism, will be treated as Zionism.
Anyone engaging in Pro-Zionist sentiment or apologia will be actioned in accordance with its severity.
3. Stay Civil
Please maintain civil discourse in the community. Do not engage in arguments with others, name-calling, or insults. Note that calling out bigotry or Zionism is not considered an insult. In heated arguments users are encouraged to or even required to disengage failure to do so will result in mod action.
4. No Misinformation
Spreading of misinformation intentionally in this community is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. Spreading misinformation hurts the credibility of the community and can mislead people sometimes in dangerous ways. Users who intentionally post misinformation as articles, comment answers, or in attempt to win arguments will be actioned swiftly.
5. No AI Content
Please do not post articles or content primarily created using generative AI. Generative AI content may contain misinformation or be lower quality and thus is discouraged. Posts and comments featuring it will be removed. However this community does not allow or tolerate Anti-AI trolling or hostility and users who engage in such behavior will be actioned for it, additionally Anti-AI trolling violates Rule 3 and often Rule 4 so it is generally unacceptable already.
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You didn't really read the results of those pills, did you? You just picked one sub-stat to focus on. The overwhelming majority of Ukrainians want Russia to leave their country, and give back what they've stolen, regardless of how that happens. Fight or negotiate...they want Russia out.
The poll states clearly that the majority of Ukrainians are okay with ceding territory to Russia in exchange for ending the war.
The polls also exclude 10-12% of the population who live in the Eastern parts of Ukraine, and that group is almost always in favor of the pro-Russian choices in any polling, which means the numbers are actually higher than the polling suggests in favor of ending the war and ceding territory
You didn't read it very well, then.
It clearly states that 52% want a quick end to the war....obviously. "OF THAT GROUP", approximately half are willing to concede territory in order to achieve it. "Of THAT group", there is a range of answers as to how much territory they'd be willing to give up. Those percentages get smaller and smaller the further you dig into that initial percentage.
As a blanket percentage that includes everyone willing to give up at least some territory... you're talking approximately one quarter of those polled. One quarter. Not an actual majority.
You've shifted the goalposts multiple times. either way, the majority of Ukrainians want the war to end when this polling was done, a significant amount are willing to cede territory, the next numbers in this poll are 10-12% lower than they actually are due to not polling the pro-Russian population in eastern Ukraine, and as time goes on the numbers will get higher because Ukrainians are losing the war, more territory, and entire generations of citizens along with their future. If you are pro Ukrainian you would be agreeing with Ukrainians that the war needs a negotiated peace and in order to do so they will have to give Russia concessions
Addressing the points you're making isn't "shifting the goalposts"...it's just pointing out that you're incorrect.
Even if the 10-12% unaccounted for all want to cede land to Russia, it still isn't a majority. And simply saying that 52% want to negotiate doesn't imply what you are saying it does. Of course they want the war to end. That isn't the gotcha you think it is.
The fact that after years of fighting, that majority is as slim as it is...and the fact that half of those who even want to negotiate for peace rather than continue to fight, don't want to cede any land at all to Russia...speaks volumes for how the majority of Ukrainians feel about the situation. And it isn't what you're claiming. A full 3/4 of the population don't think Russia should be given anything in a settlement, regardless of how it's reached.
That's what the majority want.