this post was submitted on 25 Mar 2026
29 points (100.0% liked)

Ask Lemmygrad

1286 readers
42 users here now

A place to ask questions of Lemmygrad's best and brightest

founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS
 

Edit: I'm from the Global South, I should've clarified that on the post. The lesson has been learned.

Many leftist movements, legit or not, call themselves either Trotskyist or Maoist and keep dissing Stalin for his “socialism in one state” policy and “ruining” Comintern and Deng Xiaoping for his “liberal” policies.

I want to know what they are trying to do by distancing themselves from the USSR and PRC while fetishizing Cuba and Vietnam—you'll only hear them talking about the Vietnam War, btw—and following either the guy who lost the power struggle or a literal Marxist-Leninist who supported one of the refused countries and founding the other.

top 43 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] pcalau12i@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago) (1 children)

Trotskyism isn't a real ideology. They have no actual beliefs. If you ask them what "socialism in one country" even means, either they will just straw man it and claim that Stalin believed you can have socialism in one country as a permanent and unchanging state of affairs, or they will just reduce it to pure pedantic arguments over definitions.

In the first case, it's obviously false, as Stalin argues the direct opposite in Foundations of Leninism that capitalism is a global system and thus socialism in one country is going to be inevitably dragged into international politics, and that socialism needs global victory to guarantee against capitalist restoration in the long-term. Many Trots will say this almost verbatim and pretend they are disagreeing with Stalin even though you can just read FoL and see that is Stalin's position.

Socialism in one country was not an argument that we should only build socialism in one country, but an argument that we can build socialism in one country. It was a response to the Marxists who argued that the Bolsheviks should abandon socialist construction after it was clear the international revolution had failed and they would be isolated for some time. Stalin argued that they can build socialism in one country as a temporary state of affairs to later help facilitate revolutions in other countries.

Other Trots just transform it into a purely definitional disagreement with no material substance. They will say that, by definition, socialism is international, so socialism in one country is by definition impossible. If your country has overthrown the bourgeoisie, expropriated the means of production for the working class, and replaced production for exchange with production for use, it is still not socialism by definition because they say the definition should include "+ also it's international."

This is just definition mongering and doesn't have any practical implications.

Trots fit into two categories.

Some really are just MLs in denial with Stalin Derangement Syndrome. Nothing in ML theory says you have to worship Stalin. You can, if you wish, be an ML who just is critical of Stalin. But these kinds of Trots just make it their whole personality obsessing over Stalin, constantly bringing him up in every discussion, and try to pretend there is some big ideological definition between Stalin and Leninism which doesn't exist.

They can't just say "I don't like Stalin" and move on, they are obsessed with making it their whole personality and ideology, and making sure everyone knows who much they hate Stalin, calling everything they dislike "Stalinist" and trying to pin all problems on Stalin personally. Just search the word "Stalinist" in any Trot article and you will see it said multiple times. They are so petty that Trot parties will often refer to themselves as "Marxist+Leninist" rather than "Marxist-Leninist" because they argue that Stalin used "Marxist-Leninist" first and gave it cooties and so they cannot use the dash and so they replace it with a + or the word "and".

Others are leftcoms in denial, although some don't even deny it. They will call themselves Trots but then copy/paste leftcom rhetoric which Trotsky himself argued against. I have seen so-called Trots for example claim that you shouldn't have a revolution at all in a poor country like Russia was, which is a leftcom take but something Trotsky strongly denounced as that was the Menshevik position.

Again, Trotskyism has no real ideology, so a person telling you they are a Trotskyist doesn't tell you their beliefs. They always have some other underlying belief, which is either Leninism or left-communism, and what unites them is just Stalin Derangement Syndrome. They also are united in opposing all real-world attempts to build socialism, arguing they are all influenced by Stalin and therefore are all "Stalinist" and should be condemned.

So-called Maoists, who don't even read Mao, are basically just utopian socialists. They don't believe in historical materialism, which argues that the economic base is derivative of the material conditions and is thus ultimately not something you can "decide" but forms itself unconsciously. Human societies do not have the "free will" to decide their economic base. It is determined by the historical conditions at that time.

What you can "decide" is only the superstructure around it: the political system, property rights, etc. Utopian socialists instead believe that you can indeed "decide" the economic base and try to force the economic base to be a particular way according to their moral philosophy, but this leads to economic devastation, hence the Gang of Four saying "it is better to live under poverty" than to stop trying to enforce a particular morality onto the economic base which was destroying the economy.

Their utopian socialist vision of the world is just not economically viable, and so every Maoist revolution inevitably will just evolve towards "dengist" reforms when they actually are faced with building a real economy in the real world that has to take into account their actual material conditions and not just morality, so Maoists will support a revolution until it actually succeeds, then they will condemn it. Maoists also end up opposing every actually-existing socialist project, viewing themselves as holier-than-thou because those projects have abandoned the Maoist morality and so the Maoists see themselves as morally superior to it.

[–] asdasd201@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 11 hours ago (2 children)

This is a great answer that clarified everything, thank you very much!

Btw, who are the "Gang of Four"?

[–] rainpizza@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 4 hours ago

Gang of Four

You can find more context regarding the Gang of Four and the cultural revolution here -> https://lemmygrad.ml/post/4111581

[–] prof_tincoa@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 7 hours ago

The so called Gang of Four were four Chinese people deeply influential on Chinese politics during the later stages of the Cultural Revolution. They were eventually demoted from their positions and faced trials. Maoists say that this was a counterrevolution. I don't know a lot about it, but that's the short of it.

[–] Saymaz@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

Are you talking about the Maoists who don't read Mao?

[–] asdasd201@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

I am asking about both, so I can distinguish them.

[–] Saymaz@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

The dialectically and historically educated Maoists ( most often the MLMs) do not display the type of dogmatism that the China-hating Maoists do.

[–] asdasd201@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

What is the difference between ML and MLM? Wasn't Mao an ML?

[–] Saymaz@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago)

Yes, Mao was an ML. MLM is thought to be a universally applicable scientific progression of the Marxist theory.

Maoism is viewed as Marxism–Leninism adapted specifically to the conditions of the Chinese revolution (or at least what the Maoists claim to believe).

Maoists tend to prioritize the peasantry or in some cases, the agricultural proletariat over other classes to build a Vanguard. But we all know that we can't just copy-paste revolutions. They are built according to the class condition of the existing society. And Mao did exactly that in the 20th century rural China.

[–] ghost_of_faso3@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

Its always funny seeing the difference between Western 'Maoists' and everyone else lol.

[–] asdasd201@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 11 hours ago

What I understand is Eestern Maoist are champagne socialists while Eastern ones have real struggles.

[–] Commiejones@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 1 day ago (1 children)

This is the result of the CIA funding.

Western "Marxists" are permitted to support socialist victims but not socialism when it is successful and strong. What these groups are trying to do is be palatable to the socially conscious while not threatening the western empire. They exist to soothe the conscience of the class aware by allowing them to think socialist™ thoughts while not doing socialist actions. They demonize the USSR and PRC because life under socialism must be believed to be suffering and a lost cause.

So the CIA funded and boosted "thinkers" and organizations that promoted these ideas while repressing all other Marxist thinkers and groups.

[–] asdasd201@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

So they are the first in line for the purge, right?

[–] Commiejones@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 5 hours ago

No just the leadership. The rank and file members are just misled and propagandized. Most of them should be easy to reeducate because the core issue of the injustice of capitalism is already there.

[–] BarrelsBallot@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

My mental image of OP:

(I only read the title)

[–] asdasd201@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 23 hours ago)

Lmao. I like writing catchy headlines.

The only issue is I partake in true consensual relationships.

[–] rainpizza@lemmygrad.ml 22 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I want to know what they are trying to do by distancing themselves from the USSR and PRC

Well, reading about COINTELPRO operation helps to understand what is their goal:

As for either Trotskyists And Maoists fetishizing Cuba, I had a complete opposite experience with them where they denounce Cuba as "not socialist" or a "failed revolution". Even Ho Chi Minh wrote about Trotskyists here -> https://espressostalinist.com/2013/12/31/vietnam-trotskyism-three-letters-from-ho-chi-minh/

[–] znsh@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 23 hours ago

Thanks for the article and introducing me to espresso stalinist! Been looking for more blog type sites to read.

[–] asdasd201@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I'll read the words of Uncle Ho!

For the Trots and MLMs, as I said in another reply, this has to do with regional difference.

Being next to the USSR and other Eastern Bloc countries as an imperialist puppet regime must take its toll on the people. And the founding principles of the country had anti-communism in them (communism must be crushed wherever it is seen.)

As for Cuba and Vietnam, they were in similar conditions to us. They succeeded; we failed.

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

They succeeded; we failed.

You didn't fail. You just haven't succeeded yet.

[–] asdasd201@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 23 hours ago)

Being a sleeper agent is the best tactic for now for us. The current material conditions are too anti-communist for us to do anything meaningful.

[–] Rogelio_Marciano@lemmygrad.ml 23 points 1 day ago

The debate sure is nuanced, but all theory must ultimately be practical. Praxis is the heart of Marxism. So I would question what does X organization to support present struggles.

All those guys are long dead and all have their merits and their defects. Here on Lemmygrad we tend more to the tankie side (that's Stalin, but not only him) because we understand we are about to live in the times of the Second Anti-Fascist World War and that'll require more than hugs & prayers. But rightists really love leftist infighting over dead guys, so most of the time it isn't worth.

TL;DR: support Cuba, Venezuela, etc. and critically support anyone who's doing their share to bring down the Empire.

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 25 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

distancing themselves from the USSR and PRC while fetishizing Cuba and Vietnam

Not so sure about that second part. I've heard plenty of Trotskyists call Vietnam "Stalinist". Sometimes they even call Cuba that. And Maoists tend to have the same problem with Vietnam as they do with China: they call it capitalist roader and revisionist for its market reforms. I've even seen that accusation leveled at Cuba for its own reforms.

Trots and Maoists are two sides of the same ultra coin. They criticize socialist states from seemingly different ideological directions, but they share a functional commonality: ultra-leftists advocate for socialism/communism in theory while always opposing it in practice. Ultra-leftism thrives on dogmatic and puritanical thinking.

The result of this kind of detachment from material conditions is to sabotage the success chances of socialist movements in the real world.

[–] prof_tincoa@lemmygrad.ml 22 points 1 day ago

I've seen an ML here in Brazil saying something to the tune of: Maoism is a left deviation. Trotskyism is a right deviation pretending to be a left deviation.

I want to add that there are several Trotskyst and Maoist lines. Those have fractured enough to be more umbrella terms than specific lines. As a result, some trotskysts and maoists are more reasonable than others. This might come as a surprise when you've only dealt with the more unreasonable ones.

Another curious thing: trotskysts and maoists will often agree in their conclusions while denouncing each other for the different arguments they made. "You're right for the wrong reasons."

[–] asdasd201@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It's probably a regional difference. I'm from the Global South, so people tend to deify Lenin, Fidel, Che, and Ho Chi Minh for their struggle against the imperial powers (as if Stalin was eating brunch with them.)

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Stalin led the struggle against the most aggressive imperialist power in Europe at the time. He deserves just as much respect as the rest of them. The Soviet Union's Great Patriotic War was also a war of resistance against colonization, very similar to the struggles of the global south, since the German plan for the East involved ethnic cleansing and settlement.

Afterwards, the Soviet Union actively supported decolonization efforts across the globe.

[–] asdasd201@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The Comintern and "socialism in one state" bother some people too much, especially Trots, for them to support Stalin. Idk what they were expecting from him and what they believe if Trotsky was the secretary instead.

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Well, most people who criticize "Socialism In One State" don't actually understand what it means. But setting that aside because it's a longer theoretical discussion that is probably not worth getting into in 99.9% of cases, i find it amusing how the same people who criticize "Socialism In One State" for not being internationalist enough can simultaneously criticize the Comintern, when the Comintern represented precisely that internationalism which they claim the Soviet Union abandoned*.

It's very contradictory in my opinion, but the point of course is not logical consistency or theoretical coherence, it's that people need a excuse dressed up in the appearance of theoretical justification for disliking the Soviet Union.

Also the Comintern was founded by Lenin, not Stalin.

*(And to be completely fair, they did dissolve the Comintern for a few years around the time of WWII, again for reasons that probably made sense at the time but we don't need to get into now, but it was replaced soon after.)

[–] asdasd201@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

One of the criticisms I hear about the Comintern is that USSR made it a Soviet-adjacent organization instead of a true International, like the first and second ones.

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 20 hours ago

The USSR was the birthplace of the revolution and the only socialist state in the world at the time. Of course they were central to the Comintern. They had the most power to materially affect the course of world events.

[–] Ronin_5@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 1 day ago

I have no idea. My guess is they have read enough and just took western propaganda as its word

[–] bestmiaou@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

i definitely agree with the rest of the comments in this thread (especially about COINTELPRO and emphasizing praxis), but another reason why Trotskyism and Maoism are so common in the west is trying to grapple with the failings of socialist states (sometimes real, more often exaggerated or based on lies). it's easy to take these failings as evidence that the parties leading those states are succumbing to revisionism in much the same way the CPSU eventually did. it's also a failure to do a proper analysis of the situation they were in, and very frequently completely disregards the stated analysis of the party in question.

[–] asdasd201@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I'm from the East, so I think we had more of a CIA/Gladio problem (our intelligence agency was built by them!)

I also started to think they just want an utopia out of nowhere instead of starting with what they have.

[–] bestmiaou@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 day ago

yeah, often there does seem to be a belief that if you have a strong enough party line you can skip some of the hard work of actually building socialism. you can't just skip to the good part. the struggle is what makes socialism happen, and that's always going to be messy.

[–] amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 1 day ago (1 children)

This is a good essay on the subject as western Marxism is concerned: https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Library:Western_Marxism,_the_fetish_for_defeat,_and_Christian_culture

For other places that fall into that trap, there may be different kinds of causes. For example, I don't think Maoists in India would be the same cause as that essay.

[–] asdasd201@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Our Trots and MLMs are different from their Western counterparts—at least in the past, when they fought against the government. But their constant denouncement of big socialist states confused the hell out of me.

[–] amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Interesting. Any differences that jump at you in particular? Curious to know what it's like, where they may be coming from.

Edit: typo

[–] asdasd201@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 day ago

Iirc a famous streamer in my country was talking about the Maoist movements in the Global South (Japan, India, Türkiye, etc.) and Trotsky denouncing the Trotskyists. And criticized Stalin from the points I wrote in the post. He put that stream behind a paywall, so I can't rewatch it for now.

[–] Bronstein_Tardigrade@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I've always viewed it more as a difference in methodology not philosophy, with a bit of ego thrown into the mix. Stalin represents the domino theory of one state at a time expansion, Trotsky more of a shotgun approach of hitting as many targets at once, and Mao switching from an urban vanguard to planting revolutionary roots in rural areas first. Critiquing movements and revolutions that have established some form of socialist government is healthy, as long as its not just an attack for attack sake. Unfortunately, there are so few examples to analyze, that critique often ends up looking like infighting. We all have the common end goal of destroying the imperialist bourgeoisie.

[–] zedcell@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Trotskyists have no concept of what the imperialist bourgeoisie is and will tar and feather any country as imperialist, including the imperialised.

In their actions and their rhetoric they implicitly support the western imperialists, gumming up and arguing against any alternative not as critical support but in active and constant vitriol and opposition.

[–] Bronstein_Tardigrade@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Tar and feathering fellow comrades also seems to be constant for some.

[–] Calfpupa@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 day ago

We got a term for them: revisionists

[–] asdasd201@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 1 day ago

That's a great explanation comrade! I want to use it next time I discuss/argue with other MLs/left-wingers.