Europe
Europe community on dbzer0. Intended to be a place to discuss European news, politics, or just general topics from a European perspective. Since this is on dbzer0 expect the community to lean more leftist-anarchist but a wide range of views are accepted here (within reason).
Rules:
1. No Bigotry
Any forms of Homophobia, Transphobia, Queerphobia, Racism, or Ableism will be met with swift and harsh action and will not be tolerated here whatsoever. Bigots will be banned immediately on-sight. This includes apologia of it.
2. No Zionism
Any forms of Zionism or Zionist rhetoric will not be tolerated here, this includes Zionist apologia, accusations of antisemitism towards anti-Zionists, or blatant denial or downplaying of the genocide towards Palestinians. Any attempt to uphold or prop up the IHRA definition of antisemitism, will be treated as Zionism.
Anyone engaging in Pro-Zionist sentiment or apologia will be actioned in accordance with its severity.
3. Stay Civil
Please maintain civil discourse in the community. Do not engage in arguments with others, name-calling, or insults. Note that calling out bigotry or Zionism is not considered an insult. In heated arguments users are encouraged to or even required to disengage failure to do so will result in mod action.
4. No Misinformation
Spreading of misinformation intentionally in this community is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. Spreading misinformation hurts the credibility of the community and can mislead people sometimes in dangerous ways. Users who intentionally post misinformation as articles, comment answers, or in attempt to win arguments will be actioned swiftly.
5. No AI Content
Please do not post articles or content primarily created using generative AI. Generative AI content may contain misinformation or be lower quality and thus is discouraged. Posts and comments featuring it will be removed. However this community does not allow or tolerate Anti-AI trolling or hostility and users who engage in such behavior will be actioned for it, additionally Anti-AI trolling violates Rule 3 and often Rule 4 so it is generally unacceptable already.
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I know a lot of Ukrainians...many who were students at the time of the Maiden protests. It had nothing to do with the US. At all. They simply didn't want their country taken over by Russia again.
Prior to 2014, Ukraine was already moving away from Russian influence. The Yanukovych government actually represented a reversal of policy that went back over 2 decades, since Ukraine first declared its independence from Russia. Once he was ousted, Ukraine went back to the direction it had been heading, before he changed that course. That wasn't a coup. It was the end of one.
Putin never approved of Ukrainian independence. He was determined to prevent Ukraine from getting closer to Europe, by any means necessary...and Yanukovich was just another attempt to sabotage that relationship. When the Ukrainians realized who he was really working for, they took to the streets in protest.
This wasn't an attack on Russia, although it was an open rejection of their influence.
And if you actually understood anything about Ukrainian history...you would know that the comparison to Vietnam's history, is much closer than you're willing to admit. Ukraine has been occupied by Russia for centuries. Treated as a vassal state, and subjected to horrendous abuses at the hands of the Russian Empire, and later the Soviet Union. The ruling class in Moscow has always viewed Ukrainians as peasants and lesser people.
Why do you think they were so eager to be free, as soon as the Soviet Union collapsed?
Yeah based on your posting I'm not surprised you know Maidan participants and parrot their talking points. You're describing the affects of western influence, and a common one at that, dividing a region into camps and luring one to work for the colonial powers against the regional interests. The imperialists empower some groups against others, and in this case they empowered literal white supremacists with the promise that they would become true blue europeans if they only sacrifice their neighbors, and themselves. To argue that a slavic nation is doing the right thing by getting pulled into a feud with it's neighbors in order to join forces with the imperialist, colonial camp is again the most cracker take you can possibly have on the region.
The only people who wanted to be free from the the USSR were literal banderite fascists who were tired of having to hide their love of pogroms. The quality of life in Ukraine and all of the former Soviet Union plummeted and has never recovered. The best comparison of the Ukrainian leadership post 2014 in the Vietnam context is to the comprador catholic french speaking Vietnamese who hoped to exploit their own relatives to live it up with genocidal fascists and colonizers
It's pretty weird that you're talking about Ukraine, while discounting the views of actual Ukrainians in your assessment. All you seem to know is what Ukraine looks like from a Russian perspective.
That says a lot.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspx
The majority of Ukrainians want a swift, negotiated end to this war. The data typically disagrees with cracker sentiments but the crackers always act like their position is correct. This is the crux of crackerdom.
The Ukrainians who you are prioritizing are not only a minority of Ukrainians but they are literally neo nazis
You didn't really read the results of those pills, did you? You just picked one sub-stat to focus on. The overwhelming majority of Ukrainians want Russia to leave their country, and give back what they've stolen, regardless of how that happens. Fight or negotiate...they want Russia out.
The poll states clearly that the majority of Ukrainians are okay with ceding territory to Russia in exchange for ending the war.
The polls also exclude 10-12% of the population who live in the Eastern parts of Ukraine, and that group is almost always in favor of the pro-Russian choices in any polling, which means the numbers are actually higher than the polling suggests in favor of ending the war and ceding territory