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A question on the Russia-Ukraine war (lemmygrad.ml)
submitted 1 month ago by honeyontoast@lemmygrad.ml to c/asklemmygrad@lemmygrad.ml
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Firstly, thank you for accepting me into the community. Within the last few weeks I came to the realisation that there is no such thing as a healthy, stable, capitalist society. I want to learn more about communism because it could be a real alternative to the frankly poor conditions of working class life in the UK (and any other capitalist country).

There is one thing that stands out to me here that I'd like to understand because it's a little jarring. In a few places (e.g. https://lemmygrad.ml/post/9012898/6943775) on the topic of Russia, specifically the war, people seem to believe the invasion was justified and that the Ukraine government is Nazi? Why? From my point of view, which I do admit is going to have inherent Western/NATO bias because I live in the UK, is that this is an example of Russian imperialism. If the US invaded Canada, or the UK invaded France, it would rightly be considered a travesty. Why is Russia not given the same treatment? After all, it is not communist any more and it is working class people being sent to die in this war.

Shouldn't the modern Russian government receive the same scrutiny as any other capitalist government?

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[–] Commiejones@lemmygrad.ml 36 points 1 month ago

So to start off with you need to understand that nato is not a defensive organization from the bombing of Yugoslavia to Libya nato has always existed as an offensive alliance. The USSR requested to join nato in the 1950s and then Russia did again in the late 90s. Both were rejected because nato is built to combat Russia not to protect europe.

When they broke away from the USSR Ukraine's constitution enshrined their neutrality. The only reason to renounce neutrality is because you are choosing confrontation. In the decades leading up to the war ukraine removed their neutral status from their constitution and decided they were going to join nato (more so that nato decided they were going to pull ukraine in. The majority of Ukrainians was well disposed to Russia even after the coup)

BBC has several reports from just after the miadan coup in ukraine talking about the fact that the "far right" (passive voice for nazis) had taken over the government. There's also all the stuff about them honoring Stephan Bandera who was a ukrainian nazi wannabe.

Then after the coup the first things they did were to remove language rights for Russian speaking Ukrainians so they couldn't use their mother tongue in school or legal documents or in court, etc. essentialy making them second class citizens. When they protested that they got murdered most notably in the Odesa trade union burning.

So instead of being subjugated by fascist racists the majority Russian speaking areas decided to break away. There was a civil war between the break away states and the keiv government for 9 years with 2 peace negotiations (the Minsk agreements) that were completely ignored by keiv and that time was spent building up Ukraine's military. So then in 2022 russia said "common guys ukraine isn't doing what they promised" and Ukraine started massing troops on the borders of the Donbas and increasing shelling, so Russia started massing troops on the border and saying "we need to talk about this or we are gonna get involved directly" and the other guarantor states (germany and france) said nothing. So then Russia started its SMO.

[–] ExotiqueMatter@lemmygrad.ml 34 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Imperialism isn't just taking over territory. If it was almost every country would be imperialist and it wouldn't be a very useful word now would it. Invasion is one way to force a country in a state of imperialist subjugation, but it isn't what imperialism is.

The accusation that the current Ukrainian government is run by neo-nazis doesn't come from nowhere, it is common to see Ukrainians soldiers and politicians harboring various fascist nazi related symbols including on official photos. They aren't brandishing swastikas of course (at least not when there are journalists around) even fascist understand that this wouldn't fly even in the heavily propagandized west, instead they use less well known fascist symbols. Here's a non-exhaustive list of some they use often:

The flag of the OUN:

The OUN was a fascist paramilitary group that operated in Ukraine during ww2 and openly collaborated with the Nazi invaders.

The face of Stepan Bandera:

The leader of the militant faction of the OUN. The Ukrainian government has taken various actions to enshrine him as a "war hero", including passing a law that forbid denying that he was. Some Ukrainian military patches have his face on them.

The black sun or sonnerad:

A symbol created by Heinrich Himler and used by neo-nazis world wide. You can see it on the Azov patches.

The wolfsangel:

A "rune" widely used as symbol in nazi germany and by neo-nazis. This one tend to be more sneaky than the other, especially with the variations in dimensions and orientations it's displayed in. Ukrainian fascist like to deny its nazi origin and claim that their's is actually a capital I and N mashed together and standing for "the Idea of a Nation". You also see it on Azov patches:

[–] ExotiqueMatter@lemmygrad.ml 27 points 1 month ago

Totenkopf/gestapo skull:

Exactly what the name says, a human skull symbol used by the gestapo.

Emblem of the 14th waffen grenadier division of the SS:

The emblem of a branch of the SS that operated in Ukraine during the occupation.

The iron cross:

Like the wolfsangel, this one is a bit sneaky due to the variety of forms it takes.

These are only some of the most used ones that I can think off. There are many more.

If you pay attention you'll see these frequently on photos of Ukrainian soldiers or in photos taken inside a Ukrainian politician's home or office.

[–] rainpizza@lemmygrad.ml 17 points 1 month ago

Adding to this, there were a lot of foreign fascists joining the Ukranian army. Lots of them openly showed nazi symbols such as this ones. Fortunately, this trash is getting liquidated.

[–] Horse@lemmygrad.ml 30 points 1 month ago

people seem to believe ... that the Ukraine government is Nazi? Why?

for starters:

  • veneration of bandera, a known nazi collaborator
  • mass use of nazi symbols across the ukrainian armed forces
  • the azov battalion, an overt neo-nazi group, being elevated to a position of power and prestige
[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 27 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

We have had extensive discussions on this topic before:

"Ukraine: How did we get here?"

Sources on the 2014 coup and its aftermath

"Help me understand Russia's actions, please"

Archived: Sources on the ethnic cleansing of Russian speakers in Ukraine (this post in now deleted but you can still find it on the archive; if you wish i can repost here the responses on that post, just let me know)

Additional sources on Kiev regime forces preparation for attack and ethnic cleansing of the Donbass

I would strongly recommend that you take your time and read what i and others have written in the various posts and threads linked here, go through the sources and form your own opinion if Russia was justified or not to intervene to stop NATO expansion, Ukraine's attack on the Donbass, and the threat of ethnic cleansing by the Nazi regime that the US installed in Kiev in the 2014 coup.

If you still have specific questions that aren't answered in any of the above materials i am happy to try and answer, but first you should at least have a general overview of the history leading up to the conflict, because that is crucial to understanding it. Western propaganda always ignores the history of this conflict, just like they ignore the history of 20 years of siege on Gaza leading up to October 7 and the 50 years of occupation, apartheid and ethnic cleansing before that.

Keeping people ignorant of the history is the only way that they are able to portray the reactions of both Russia and of the Palestinian resistance in their respective conflicts as unprovoked, unjustified and irrational.

[–] Maeve1@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Also good information here, for op and newbies, thanks! 🫡

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

We need to centralize this sort of information and compile a list of sources for easy future reference for newbies, similarly to how we did for other subjects like the "Uyghur genocide" hoax.

[–] GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I've been considering doing something like this for a while. I just pinned a thread on GenZhou to collect sources in the comments. We could also host it on ProleWiki once it's sufficiently exhaustive.

[–] Maeve1@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

That would be amazing. Perhaps a FAQ on prolewiki* or elsewhere?

I'm really digging your inexhaustible, plain-language and patience more and more, lately. I think at first a shorter attention span from the other instances and "junk food" Western media, easy to consume in massive amounts, spoon-fed, skillfully-hidden ready-made, opinions, washed down with unthoughtful bandwagon comments. I definitely can't consume as much here, and have to keep coming back to reread for missed/skimmed information, and deeper reflection. A blessing, but it keeps me from being aware of other developments, so I'm not sure if I'm just greedy and addicted* alone, or if it's simply too much for me to keep up.

One thing that is more and more glaring elsewhere (aka the West, and specifically for me, the USA): we are so mired in resenting the past rather than learning from it, forward motion is not even a goal, let alone a results-driven action plan.

Edited for autocorrect, punctuation

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Perhaps a FAQ on prolewiki* or elsewhere?

Yes. At the very least something like a basic chronology of the conflict and its history.

I'm really digging your inexhaustible, plain-language and patience more and more, lately.

Thanks. But i wouldn't call it inexhaustible, haha...i definitely get lazy sometimes and just post links. I do think it it's important to be patient especially with new comrades who just don't have the same level of knowledge yet on certain subjects. As Sankara said: "we must never stop explaining". We all started at zero at some point, and so we should be patient with others who are relative newcomers to socialism and anti-imperialism. Education is really the most empowering thing.

And yes, i also think it's very important to use plain language that anyone can understand. I know from my time teaching science that if someone who is making an honest effort to understand what you are trying to explain is still not getting it, then it's probably your fault as a teacher. We need to do our best to break down complicated concepts in easy language and simple logic rather than retreat into technical jargon that only a few "experts" can understand.

This is all the more important when you are doing revolutionary educational work to dispel bourgeois miseducation/misinformation and give people a clear and correct historical materialist perspective on the world.

The downside of what we do, as you pointed out, is that it takes more effort to really rigorously educate yourself and undo all the bourgeois indoctrination, it's not necessarily the kind of "cheap fast food" of content that you get elsewhere, even on other leftist forums. I'm still working on getting more concise and efficient in my writing, because that is important if we want to reach a broader mass of people who don't have the time or the attention span to read entire essays.

we are so mired in resenting the past rather than learning from it

Resenting or glorifying. Neither is helpful. Without understanding the past we cannot hope to have proper context for what is happening today. And that leads to dangerous misconceptions, it leaves you open to being lied to by malicious propagandists who will pretend that history just started in Feb 2022 or on October 7. The point of learning from the past is making better decisions in the future. The knowledge itself is only a means to an end. As Marx said: "The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point is to change it."

[–] Maeve1@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 1 month ago

♥️

[–] itspostingtime@lemmygrad.ml 27 points 1 month ago (1 children)

OP, as you study background on this issue, I recommend the 2016 documentary Donbass. Warning, there are some graphic scenes. A scene from the documentary which can give a small snapshot of some of the tensions in 2014: Former Ukrainian soldier talks about the burning of the Trade Union building in Odessa in 2014.

I also recommend checking out any videos and/or articles by Geopolitical Economy Report regarding Ukraine, which are usually thorough in giving background and context.

Over time, you should educate yourself on the topic of color revolutions as well as on things like the history about the Gehlen Organization/Reinhard Gehlen and OUN-B/Stepan Bandera and things like Operation Gladio to gain a comprehensive picture of the direct line of Nazi leadership going into NATO leadership and working with and fostering right-wing anti-communist forces throughout Europe and coordinating color revolutions (among other things) to suppress communism, as well as learn about the USA's "strategic imperative" to drive and maintain a wedge specifically between the east and west of Eurasia while keeping western Europe as its subordinate, to prevent the rise of a Eurasian rival to US dominance. This strategy is explained for example in Brzezinski's Grand Chessboard, with US figures recently involved in Ukraine, such as Victoria Nuland who played a role in the 2014 events, being proponents of this strain of US strategy, often euphemized with phrases like the "rules-based international order" in diplomatic language. This will help flesh out many of the "whys" of the various actors in this conflict.

[–] Maeve1@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 1 month ago

Informative information here, thanks¡ 🫡

[–] REEEEvolution@lemmygrad.ml 25 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

specifically the war, people seem to believe the invasion was justified

https://lemmygrad.ml/post/8990113?scrollToComments=true The new government then provoked a uprising among the ethnic russian parts of the country (essentially everything east of Kiev) followed by a civil war, terror bombings, ethnic cleansing. https://lemmygrad.ml/c/donbass

Crimea dipped out asap in 2014 and asked to join Russia shortly after.

Russia meanwhile tried to deescalate the situation diplomatially. This lead to the Minsk 2 agreement, which Ukraine violated time and time again without any punishment. Mere possibilities of violats by Russia lead to more sanctions o Russia tho. Eventually former Chancelor Merkel and former French Pres outright stated that Misnk 2 was never intended to be upheld, it was just a ruse to give Ukraine more time to increase the effectiveness of its forces.

In 22 Russia formally recognized the two Donbas republics as independent states and answered their calls for military assistance.

"Russian imperialism" my ass.

and that the Ukraine government is Nazi?

A dead giveaway are the red and black banners you can see a plenty in picture from Ukraine. That's the banner of the fascist UPA militia who aided the Nazis in the Holocaust. They are considered national heroes in Ukraine. Their slogan was "Slava Ukraini! Slava Heroiam!", which now is the offical slogan of the Ukranian armed forces. You propably know that slogan or at least the first half, because every lib under the sub was yelling it in 22.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Shouldn’t the modern Russian government receive the same scrutiny as any other capitalist government?

You should propably start then. Because you did not apply any scrutiny whatsoever to the offical western line.

[–] honeyontoast@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 1 month ago

You're absolutely right. There's a lot I don't know, your response and the others have given me a lot to read about. Thank you!

[–] Xiisadaddy@lemmygrad.ml 20 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Things are more complicated than most people realize, and many people here would probably have slightly different opinions on the specifics. I think it's false to say people here all are of the opinion that Russia is justified in it's war against Ukraine, but I'm not going to bother rehashing everything here, and will instead link you to some reading you should do related to the topic. After going through these you should come back to this post, and ask any new questions you have. It's tough to discuss something so detailed if you don't have the background info.

Some useful background: https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Library:The_Maidan_Massacre_Trial_and_Investigation_Revelations:_Implications_for_the_Ukraine-Russia_War_and_Relations#2_Evidence_of_a_Cover-Up

https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Donbass

https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_coup_d%27etat

On Nazi's in Ukraine: https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Assault_Brigade_%22Azov%22

[–] honeyontoast@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Thank you! I had no idea about the Azov movement or its brigade. The links to Naziism are undeniable, I don't know why this isn't a bigger deal to the West. I tried seeing if Starmer had ever commented on Azov, but I can't find anything.

To be honest that really threw me, I don't know how the Ukraine government can defend not only allowing Nazi groups to exist, but to actually bring them into the military? I think I understand where people come from now - it reminds me of the old saying about "if four people are sat at a table and a Nazi joins them, there are five Nazis at the table". If the Ukrainian government oppose Naziism, and any decent person should, then they need to take a hard stance on these groups instead of allying with them.

I'm going to need more time to think and read, but I appreciate your response. The issue certainly isn't a simple one.

[–] Xiisadaddy@lemmygrad.ml 20 points 1 month ago

It's not a bigger deal to the west because the west have always supported Naziism so long as it didn't harm their own interests. The US supplied Nazi Germany with weapons and didn't want to get involved in the war until Germany declared war on them. They recruited Nazi scientists into their government after WW2, put Nazi officials in charge of west Germany. Brought on Hitlers Chief of staff to help run NATO. etc. The US also sent military advisers to train Azov, and armed them. They are the allies of the west. Just as the Israeli Fascist Colonial Project is. For the west supporting Nazis is not an exception, but the rule. The exception to the rule was WW2, and only because the German fascists directly threatened the interests of the US, and UK. Prior to Germany attacking them they were singing Hitlers praises.

Just look at the current American government. They aren't even pretending anymore to not be fascists.

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 17 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Prior to 2022 some western media still reported on Azov and the widespread Nazi problem in Ukraine:

Afterwards, they memoryholed all of that and acted as if there were never any Nazis there, or they somehow all became moderates overnight. They then proceeded to lie to the Western public and tell us that the Russians invented the whole Nazi story to justify the invasion. The western media began a co-ordinated campaign to whitewash the most heinous and violent Nazi groups in Ukraine, groups which by 2022 were already notorious in Ukraine for war crimes and atrocities against civilians and which have only gotten more brutal since, so that they could send weapons and money to these groups to fight the Russians.

Now the Kiev regime not only tolerates these Nazis but elevates them to the status of national heroes. They have adopted the slogans and symbols of these Nazis, as well as their worship and celebration as national heroes of WW2 Nazi collaborators, war criminals and mass murderers who participated in the Holocaust. We are talking about groups which massacred hundreds of thousands of Poles, Jews and Ukrainians alike, and yet the current Kiev regime chooses to name streets and Ukrainian army units after them (they also name units after actual German Nazi Wehrmacht and SS units).

The cult of Bandera is the foundation of modern Ukrainian nationalism. This is one of the reasons why large parts of predominantly ethnic Russian eastern Ukraine rebelled against this regime in 2014.

You can find extensive research on the history and present day outsize influence of this cult on Ukrainian politics here: https://banderalobby.substack.com/

If you want something more concise and conversational on the topic of this cult you can read this polemic: Denazification - Bandera Cult (content warning for some ableist language).

[–] Aria@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Did you know the USA and Israel are siding with Al-Qaïda in Syria? Not just as a pragmatic reaction to them winning, I mean from the start. The western media reports on it, but without all that much spin manages to rehabilitate them even after spending years hyping them up as their primary adversary.

The Nazi elements in the Ukrainian military and leadership is similar. You'll hear lots about Nazis in Ukraine from western media in the future, when they need to justify why they abandoned their economic commitments after the war.

I don't know about Starmer, but Johnson called them heroes. Here's a photo of him holding up a Azov flag with a wolfsangel on it. The men next to him are POWs that were released by Russia. One of them is currently working for the IDF.

Boris Johnson posing with members of Azov

But it's not limited to Azov. There are other Nazi-exclusive army sections. For example 67th Mechanized Brigade is staffed by former Right Sector militias. These were Nazis who were waging racial war without the government's (explicit) consent using artillery and besieging ethnic-Russia-majority cities. Extremely high-profile terrorists. But all is forgiven as their experience is needed. They received tank-training in the UK.

The Nazi rehabilitation is very advanced in Ukraine. Normal everyday people who aren't super political or "online" view Stephan Bandera as a heroic figure, or at least as someone who's okay for the government to celebrate.

[–] honeyontoast@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I didn't know about Syria, but it doesn't surprise me. It's not the first time the US or UK armed al Qaeda!

In fact there are a lot of similarities between the US and UK arming the Afghan Mujahedeen and these Ukrainian paramilitary groups. After the Ukraine war is over, I wonder what these armed and trained Nazis will do...

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

On Syria: there was a famous email exchange leaked by Wikileaks in which a US state department official and later Biden regime national security advisor tells Hillary Clinton verbatim "Al Qaeda is on our side in Syria".

After the Ukraine war is over, I wonder what these armed and trained Nazis will do...

So do we. Many people have been pointing this out since the conflict escalated in 2022 when the West began supporting these groups wholesale.

What happens when you have tens of thousands of well armed, radicalized extremists with extensive military experience, who have severe PTSD and are used to killing without remorse, and who will be searching for someone to blame for their defeat? Who will they point to as having "betrayed" them and robbed them of their victory, in a similar way to what the German WWI veterans did who formed the first fascist and Nazi paramilitary organizations?

Many of them also have drone warfare experience and drones are extremely easy to smuggle across borders and very hard to detect and shoot down at short notice. Where will they go and who will they target for mass casualty terrorist attacks? Russia has learned how to take appropriate precautions for the most part. Also these people will be wanted as war criminals by Russia so they will have a hard time getting in. Europe on the other hand is already welcoming many of these people with open arms...

[–] VladimirLimeMint@lemmygrad.ml 19 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Funny you mentioned Canada because it is instrumental in formation and creation of Ukrainian Nazis today.

Canada Let in Thousands of Former Nazis

Canada and Ukraine: The Careful Suppression of a Shameful History

US-Nazi Collaboration: Still With Us

Eagle And Swastika CIA and Nazi War Criminals and Collaborators

Family Ties: How a Ukrainian Nazi and a living witness link Canada to Ukraine today

Episode #0: Alex Boykowich, the Ukrainian Canadian left & Chrystia Freeland's Nazi grandpa

The Canadian Bandera Network

Nazi collaborator monuments in Ukraine

Yaroslav Hunka

PSA: That Ukranian nazi's unit bombed Toronto children after being welcomed into Canada after WW2

Native Ukrainian National Faith

[–] Maeve1@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 1 month ago

Excellent! Thank you! 🫡

[–] TankieReplyBot@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 1 month ago

A Reddit link was detected in your comment. Here are links to the same location on alternative frontends that protect your privacy.

[–] KrasMazov@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Since comrades already provided a lot of sources about it. I just want to link to this video about the Euromaidan by Brasilian Marxist Ian Neves. It's an hour long and in Portuguese, but should help understanding what happened in Ukraine between 2013-2014.

[–] TankieReplyBot@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 month ago

I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:

[–] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)

pinging @davel@lemmygrad.ml for the resource dump

[–] davel@lemmygrad.ml 17 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Previously:

Honest question from a non-communist, based on your reply here. Does one need to support Putin to be a Marxist?

In a word, no. In a few more words, support for Russia (not Putin, as historical materialists don’t subscribe to great man theory) is only a partial, temporary, tactical one, in the context of imperialist liberation. Russia is still a capitalist state, though, so it’s a two stage strategy: first liberate colonized bourgeois states from colonizer states, and second revolution within those liberated bourgeois states.

Russia is an interesting case: it has already liberated itself from the post-Soviet “shock therapy” neocolonizers. This occurred during Putin’s administration, which is why he is especially hated by the US. So now the support for Russia is in the context of keeping the colonizers from recolonizing it, and supporting Russia to the extent that it helps other states liberate themselves. But Russia isn’t trying to “liberate” Ukraine, at least not all of Ukraine. It’s trying to resolve the genocidal attacks on the people of the Donbas, and it’s trying to resolve the imperialist military expansion at its border.

Previously:

The US-backed Maidan coup and US & Ukraine-supported fascist paramilitary attacks on eastern & southern Ukraine:

 
NATO expansion:

 
NATO in general:

[–] TankieReplyBot@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 month ago

I found YouTube links in your comment. Here are links to the same videos on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:

Link 1:

Link 2: