Ask Lemmy

Anecdotal evidence rules! Everyone posting here is alive!
The estimated 420,000 folks who die annually from improper food and water handling refuse to post!!!
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90% Vegetarian. Chicken and Fish meat only. Canada.

I used to be a chef so I follow food safety guidelines with some wiggle room, since commerical kitchen standards are supposed to protect all kinds of people in a wide variety of circumstances, while I'm fairly healthy and in control of my kitchen/storage.

I don't let food that's supposed to be hot sit at room temperature for more than 2hrs max. I keep most starchy fruit and root veggies in loose, hanging bags and berries/greens/less starchy vegetables in the fridge. I usually only buy meat if I'm using it that day, only keep leftovers in the fridge for two-to-three days, and freeze anything else.

Super basic explanation: Bacteria are on anything not sterile or on fire. Most are harmless on their own but some produce shit that makes you sick. Like botulism is caused by the toxin the bacteria produce and not the bacteria itself, and it's found on vegetables. The bacteria (if they're not endospores) die with heat but the toxin remains. And with food production all mingled, bacteria from meats can be transferred to non-meat products, too. You can even get sick from raw flour.

Cooked foods have more available sugars and nutrients for bacteria to eat, plus warmth and moisture, so it's a great environment for bacteria to break out of hibernation, make babies and poop toxins.

Leaving cooked starchy foods out in ideal bacteria party conditions isn't great, and food poisoning isn't always throwing up and shitting your guts out. Sometimes it's a slight headache or a sore throat, and it can happen days or months after the fact. Ever had a 24 flu? Unexplained weird anxiety and a tummy ache that goes away after a day? Food poisoning happens to about 1/10 people worldwide every year.

But whatever, it's about how much risk you want to take on.

This is a thing pushed by American media. It's a Boomer-era panic over summertime picnics and somehow mayonnaise causing potato salad to immediately after 30 minutes outside a refrigerator to become fatal if consumed.

It's also the product of misunderstandings of buying meat at a supermarket, wrongly assuming that meat that is not refrigerated for more than 15 minutes will basically kill you.

Panicking about food poisoning is a moral panic about "bad parenting" and blaming people when it wasn't widely known what causes food poisoning: not washing your filthy hands, cross-contaimination, and poor hygiene overall.

I've lived in West Africa and bought and cooked and safely eaten meat that had sat on a wooden plank lightly covered in flies before I got there to buy it. I survived. Mayonnaise will outlive humanity before it molds or goes bad at room temp.

Meat eater from the UK. I'll leave stuff out for varying amounts of time, just smell it before I eat it or have a trial spoon first.

Never had any food poisoning in my life and I have eaten some very questionable things for sure.

In my personal opinion people wildly over exaggerate stuff like this and dates on packaging. My nose knows.

Canadian living in Australia. Omnivore.

Kicker: Food technologist and health inspector. AMA.

Tl;dr: Doesn't matter if it's meat or veg. It goes in the fridge. Follow 2h/4h rule. Edit: Should specify certain veg are potentially hazardous as soon as you cut in to them, like leafy greens. All cooked or partially veg that should be treated like meat.

For work, I'm fairly strict in businesses because the food can go anywhere once it's in the hands on the customer, even in restaurants or at home. You can look at your dine in customers and they all look healthy, but what if they're not, or where do the leftovers go? Do they take it home after date night to share some with little Bobby or Grandma Jane? In business, you do what you can to keep the food as "clean" as you can.

At home and in food businesses, handwashing is ALWAYS a problem. Food handlers are always touching their faces, phones, hip towel they've had on all day, touching a towel they use used to wipe their hands after only rinsing hands in water in the sink, and then touching lettuce for a salad. So even at home, you can cook things to keep bacteria, but is the scoop, container, and your hands clean? Dust, pollen, flies, hairs, etc also carry microbes, and if any of them fall in to food after its been cooked, the bacteria can grow.

It also depends on the type of bacteria, too. Salmonella can infect at an extremely low dose, and Staphylococcus infects at very high doses.

I follow the 2h/4h rule for anything potentially hazardous. Of course, at home, I'm a bit more flexible, usually +/- 1h. If I make myself sick, alright, but there's no way I'm going to make anyone else sick, so if I'm making food for others, I keep to the strict rules. I'm also generally more risk adverse because the thought of anything involuntary coming out either end makes me sick just thinking about it.

I think the amount of time a food stays out is cultural, and if you grew up with it, your gut will have gotten used to the levels of bacteria. Us westerners generally get sick drinking tap water in certain countries when the locals are fine. I used to live with a Japanese lady for a year, and she knew what I did for a living. She always left rice out all night and ate it the next day. One day, she came to me with it and said "does this smell weird?" and it was a definite yes from me. I'd never leave cooked rice out that long and feel comfortable eating it.

So yeah, Bacillus cereus or whatever bacteria present may not occur all the time, but it does happen. Imagine making large batches and serving to large numbers of unrelated people.

Another thing: Cool foods within 2h to a reasonable temperature (I say 40C is fine) before putting it in the the fridge uncovered. If you put hot food in the fridge, you run the risk of warming up the foods already in the fridge.

Wash your hands.

And use a thermometer. Make sure it's clean before you use it.

Thanks for listening to my Ted Talk.

Vegetarian/Germany. I'll leave food on the counter too as long as I'm still planning to eat it the same day. Never had issues. If I'm planning to only eat it the next day, I'll refrigerate it.

One big reason for the US guidelines being so strict is that they apply to the entire country, which ranges from Florida to Alaska and everywhere in between, and they are worst case. Plus with a massive population fed by capitalist companies that value money over lives and frequently altered food for profit, deaths in a large population are going to happen.

I don't leave stuff that needs refridgeration out for more than a few hours so that it holds up for several days and the time varies widely by food type. Food does need to cool down significantly before refridgerating, although sometimes I will put it in within a couple hours to avoid forgetting. For most foods I have a four hour limit outside the fridge.

Commercially raised chicken has a very high chance of having salmonella. Raw chicken is only out long enough to prepare and cook. Once cooked I don't worry anymore than anything else.

I also use the dates as rough estimates and when to pay more attention to spoilage. I don't worry about safety for canned foods that don't have signs of spoilage, but a soup can a couple years past the best by date has likely probably separated and textures will be off. Dates on bags of chips are a sign they are will be going stale within a few months.

The ignorance in here of how food can go bad is impressive. Refrigerate within one hour. You don’t need to let it cool down before putting it into the refrigerator.

https://www.cdc.gov/food-safety/prevention/index.html

Bacteria can multiply rapidly if left at room temperature or in the "Danger Zone" between 40°F and 140°F. Never leave perishable food out for more than 2 hours (or 1 hour if exposed to temperatures above 90°F).

Refrigerate perishable food (meat, seafood, dairy, cut fruit, some vegetables, and cooked leftovers) within 2 hours. If the food is exposed to temperatures above 90°F, like a hot car or picnic, refrigerate it within 1 hour.

Package warm or hot food into several clean, shallow containers and then refrigerate. It is okay to put small portions of hot food in the refrigerator since they will chill faster.

US. Omnivore.

The food safety recommendations and regulations for commercial Kitchens are there for a reason. That being said, a home setting is very different than a commercial setting.

1. The potential for impact is much greater in a commercial environment due to the volume of food and customers served.

2. Believe it or not, a home setting is more controlled than a commercial setting: There are (generally) fewer food handlers, service personnel and “customers” touching or breathing on the food/dishes/equipment. And whether any of those individuals pose a disease vector risk is fairly well understood within the household, which can be mitigated on a more granular level. Because you are only serving one table instead of many at different stages of readiness, there is smaller variety of foods in preparation at once, fewer steps in the prep process happening simultaneously, and dirty dishes are only handled after the food has been prepared and eaten, reducing the risk of cross contamination. There are so many vectors for contamination in a commercial setting that the controls are in place to stop little issues from turning in big problems.

All this is to say that I am generally okay leaving finished foods out on my counter for extended periods of time if it has been freshly and properly prepared, or I plan on finishing or pitching it that day.

However, your examples baffle me. Leaving pasta out all day just seams like an unpleasant eating experience, indifferent of the health implications. Soup and lasagna? I can’t imagine wanting either of those early enough in the morning to prepare them so that I could leave them out “all day”. If I’m grabbing leftovers from the fridge, I wouldn’t leave it out. It’s already got a container and a space on the shelf; I just put the rest back where it came from after I take my serving. Sitting on the counter isn’t going to improve it.

Vegetables of course live their entire pre-picked lives without refrigeration and are generally fine on the counter when fresh. I would refrigerate prepared fresh vegetables if I knew I wasn’t going to finish them or they were particularly moist, like cut tomatoes or a dressed salad, or known to turn quickly like avacado.

I like to find a balance between being worried about bacteria and trusting my immune system to deal with anything that comes along. However, my immune system tends to over-react to things that aren't a threat (allergies to cherries, peaches, cats, dogs, kangaroos, pollen, dust, etc.) so I'd be pretty pissed if it couldn't handle some bacteria.

I'll cut the bad parts off an old pepper and still put the good parts on my omelette in the morning. I'll cut the moldy bit off a piece of cheese and use the rest. Bread...nope. I can handle it being a bit stale, but moldy is too much. I'm not afraid of bread mold, but I don't like the taste.

Last year I tossed the Thanksgiving turkey out the next day because my wife and I forgot to deal with it and left it sitting on the kitchen table next to the radiator. That seemed to me like it would be a bit too much of a challenge to my immune system.

Meat eater, cooler climate in Australia.

We generally put things in the fridge but are also pretty casual about leaving things out.

There's a lot of variables that would effect my inclination to consume something that had been left out for whatever period of time.

Cooked Rice is almost a perfect growth medium for bacteria. My Mrs cooks a batch in the rice cooker, doesn't refrigerate it, but consumes it all within 36 hours. That said, it has just been boiled so you're starting with almost no bacteria.

Dairy is the worst. Letting milk get to room temperature and leaving it for a half hour or so is going to dramatically reduce it's lifetime even if you put it back in the fridge afterwards.

American/meat-eater

Bread stays out but is wrapped

Butter stays out in a butter bell (that's not a common thing in America BTW but they should be)

Some sauces and condiments and such that are packed full of salt and vinegar and such stay out

Leftovers and such go into the fridge after a few minutes to a few hours, there's not exactly a hard rule here, just kind of based on what feels right and whenever we get around to it. Overnight is too long, with few exceptions if it's been out that long we'd probably throw it out.

One exception to that is if I make stock, there's a good chance that's going to sit out for a good while to cool down. It takes a while to get a big pot of liquid down to a reasonable temperature to put in the fridge. I also figure it's been simmering for several hours, so odds are there's no bacteria alive in it, so I throw a lid on it to try to keep it that way, especially when I do it in the pressure cooker because it's basically been autoclaved at that point and it's staying in a pretty damn close to totally airtight vessel.

Most vegetables and fruits are fine out on the counter for at least a day or two, and some will last weeks or months depending on temperature, humidity, how much light they get, etc. but most of them last a lot longer in the fridge so that's where they go. Onions, garlic, potatoes, pineapples, and bananas always live outside of the fridge. Other things like apples, citrus, tomatoes, peppers may go either way depending on how fast I'm planning to use them and how much fridge space I have. Cut-up produce always goes in the fridge.

So as a person who's been in that back area of a restaurant, we all know the danger zone is anything above 40F to 140F and the closer you are to that median temperature that median temperature the faster that bacteria multiplies, meat, vegetables, doesn't matter, as long as the temperature's right and there's enough moisture there, they'll breed like bacteria and there are bacteria that leaves toxins behind that will also make you sick.

So given that, I've always put stuff into the fridge as soon as were done eating generally following the two hour rule and it's been sitting out for more than four hours without refrigeration, I'll usually toss it.

Omnivore, European. I leave my food outside if I plan to eat it the same day, and wait till it has reached room temperature before I put it in the fridge. Most of the time we leave food in a small room we have which is slightly cooler than living room (16ish degrees in winter I think) and it stays good for as long as there is food left. I have also eaten food that was left in kitchen at room temperature for about two days, but only once or twice with highly acidic food (chili or bolognese).

As long as it smells good and looks good, it’s good. Never had food poisoning in my life.

US omnivore.

Most fruit stays on the counter in the fruit bowl (except berries, I want more than a day to eat them), bread, and all unprocessed veg (besides lettuce, again I find it goes bad fast) stays out.

Anything that I have prepared and cooked goes in the fridge when we are done eating it or when it's approaching room temperature. Sometimes a little warmer if I'm impatient. If we had a pot luck / carry in food sometimes sets out a couple hours NBD, still fridge after.

Red meat gets salted or seasoned and sits out to approx room temp before cooking if I think about it. I don't do that from frozen (I use sous vide for that defrost), with very large cuts (rib roast for example) or with chicken because I have never noticed it cook unevenly.

The only food that ever really sits out on the counter after preparation is rice or baked goodies (banana bread, cookies, etc.). Anything that sits out overnight is now trash except pizza if it was a late night snack. Anything out is quite rare anyway since we usually clean the kitchen before bed.

Edit: Eggs of course in the fridge, they are washed. Butter also fridge, I know it can stay out but I usually like it harder, we aren't spreading it that often compared to measuring.

General rule: If the store I bought it from was refrigerating it, so am I.

We lean towards vegetarian, minimum meat consumption for both health and environmental reasons.

As far as leaving food out…only foods that don’t require refrigeration. Bread, snacks, etc. Anything cooked that is still hot will be allowed to cool before going into the fridge, no need to make the fridge work harder, but it doesn’t stay out long enough to be a food safety problem.

Uncooked foods that are dangers to bacteria growth like meats and the like don’t sit out ever or are carefully thawed. Eggs? They’re fine out of the fridge, just crack them individually into a small bowl to make sure they’re good before use. I think I’ve only ever had one bad egg left out and it was pretty obvious, they just last a lot longer if refrigerated. Greens and other veg just wilt and dehydrate if not used quickly unless refrigerated, but leaving them out isn’t an issue. They get washed before use.

Anyway…I do most all the cooking and take food safety seriously. I’ve had one serious bout of food poisoning from a restaurant and that made death seem like a viable option vs the misery of constantly evacuating everything in your body for a few days, and the memory stuck with me. You can cook great food that’s been prepared to the correct and safe temperature, and I have little issue with foods that have been cooked like this, left out to cool and refrigerated, then reheated to a proper temperature.

Also… thinking rice or pastas are fine left out because no animal proteins, think again.

Dutch omnivore. I will sometimes leave something on the counter overnight. Usually when I made a big pan of something which I can't fit into the fridge. But it's something that will be reheated/boiled. Like a soup or stew. My wife complains about it everytime I do that though 😄

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort?wprov=sfla1

I'm unable to find micromort numbers for food-poisoning or food preservation techniques, but my wild guess is that leaving an average vegetarian leftover overnight at an average kitchen temperature on the averagely cleaned kitchen counter, unrefrigerated and even not covered at all, then eating it the next day (maybe reheated) is gonna be negligible amounts of risk compared to many many many other risks people take everyday without blinking their eye about it (such as walking, driving, climbing stairs, swimming, drinking alcohol, using cleaning products, inhaling/eating environmental pollution, not washing hands after toilet, ...)

I leave food on the counter all the time, because If I'm still hungry in a little while, I don't want my food cold. I have never in my life gotten food poisoning from it.

I think context is also important. At home I eat all kinds of things that have been all kinds of places for various amounts of time. I grew up eating fruit straight off the vine after a quick shine with my shirt (and nectar in the case of honeysuckle).

When I'm handling food for my patients I take no chances. Even the ones without specific immune disorders are under high bodily stress while being exposed to shit that's basically been bred for resistance to antimicrobials. My husband has only had one hospital job but has been working in bulk production kitchens longer than my entire career in healthcare. If one item does go bad it can spread to the others pretty quickly. Another issue is that while I wash my hands plenty at home and also so compulsively at work that I have to use dimethicone lotion to keep my skin together, I can't actually guarantee that my coworkers do. Wish I could, but I'm not pressing my ears to the bathroom door in the breakroom to do it. I know I washed my hands before touching the patients' breakfasts but I'm too busy focusing on my own job to tell you for certain that anybody else did so yeah there really might be something growing on those trays an hour or two later.

So at home, no I don't really care. But in high volume kitchens and institutional environments it's important enough that my husband actually knows all the specific times and temperatures off the top of his head.

Omnivore/Central Europe:

I am pretty special in my needs because i hate eating leftovers when they were out "too long" (where "too long" is a very random amount of time), so i normally wait until the food is room temperature; if i don't plan to eat within the next few hours it goes into the fridge pretty much instantly. But i know that this is my personal spleen and that it would be fine much longer.

Bread, any fruit, onions, potatoes, garlic and so on stay outside tho.

It's more important to make sure that your kitchen and cooking utensils are clean, and anything that was used for preparing meat doesn't get reused; and the dishes must be heated properly - that alone would mean it's probably save to stay out overnight if it's not 30°C in the kitchen in the midst of summer.

It really depends on the moisture content; like the aforementioned soup. One thing that all organisms need to function is water, and soup is wet.

The vegetables are still alive and their 'immune' systems are still functioning (ish) so they aren't as susceptible to rot as actually dead things are, like meat (which also has a high moisture content).

Cooked food is not sterile; there are types of fungus and bacteria (like the plague!^1^) that create 'cysts' which are impervious to normal cooking temperatures. The only way to kill them is the soak the medium (i.e. your lasagna) in pure ethanol or burn it in a reallllyy hot fire. If you're not in the habit of soaking everything you eat in ethanol or eating charcoal, then they will eventually start multiplying again. They're basically the reason things go bad.

The bread I buy never goes in the fridge because I eat it fast enough that I don't really need to worry about it. Same probably goes with your pasta and other counter food. There is bacteria and fungus growing in it and on it, but it's not enough to really do anything. By the time there would have been a potentially dangerous amount of life inhabiting your counter food, it's already in your small intestine.

1. Yersinia Pestus, causitive agent of The Black Death, can form cysts and remain viable for centuries in the ground, however it is easily killed with UV or temperatures over 40°C. Also, we are now resistant to the plague but you still might lose your toes and finger tips.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbial_cyst

*I live in Canada btw, but most of the places I've lived in have had pretty much the same internal environment. ~21°C and fairly dry. Though I do lose the odd box of spinach if it freezes on the way home. 🫠

Mostly vege/france. I don't mind leaving food out in the open, especially cakes, pies and cookies. I can confirm that sometimes a few days out are too much, but as long as you check for weird scent/look, you'll be ok. My parent recently ate boiled meat over the course of a week without putting it in the fridge, leaving it in its pot and reheating each day, they threw the last bit because it smelled bad, but they had no problem before that.

South US, but in the mountains where it is much cooler. SO is vegetarian and I am an omnivore but skew vegetarian, especially at home. I leave heated things out to cool from hot to warm before putting in the fridge. About an hour, maybe 2 when I am being forgetful. Anything over that is taking risk. I’ve had a few nasty bouts of food poisoning before so I skew on the safe side.

My mom on the other hand grew up very differently. Lives by the beach in a much warmer more humid climate. She’ll leave moist dump cakes unrefrigerated for days. She’s more homeopathic than me, says the spices have been used for ages to preserve food. She’s not wrong, but you have to throw in a lot more cinnamon than what our Americanized palate is accustomed to. We are very careful about what we eat when we visit, and even then, small bites to try first.