this post was submitted on 01 Jul 2025
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I have often heard ultra-lefts describe Marxists who oppose settler-colonialism and uphold AES as being "Third Worldists".

Looking at what people like Jason Unruhe have to say about the topic, Third Worldism does not seem entirely baseless (e.g. the proletariat in the imperial core more often being labor aristocrats).

So, what are our thoughts on Third Worldism?

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[–] bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml 18 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

Third worldism, as i understand it, the position that the working class in the imperial core is inherently reactionary and thus an enemy, is a completely natural position to take for a global south person. Western marxists feel personally attacked for this position and end up rejecting it and discrediting it. This is not to say that there are no good comrades in the West, but simply that the vast majority are not.

Honestly it's a good way to lure out the chauvinism of western marxists.

Domenico Losurdo has written extensively on this on "Western Marxism".

[–] MarxMadness@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Western marxists feel personally attacked for this position and end up rejecting it and discrediting it.

This is certainly part of it, but there are at least three other reasons western marxists hold some reservations:

  1. Inside the imperial core, it's often framed as essentially a defeatist position. If a leftist from the U.S. accepts the idea that pretty much everyone around them is inherently reactionary, what are they supposed to do? You can't decide at the start that there's no way to win.
  2. While the material conditions of a poor person in the imperial core are better than poor people in the imperial periphery, the imperial machine rarely ties its exploitation directly to that benefit. A key part of modern imperialism (especially in the U.S.) is denying that you're an empire at all. When that's combined with obscene inequality in the core, you have the basics for building class consciousness even if on paper your imperial working class is better off than working people in the rest of the world.
  3. It occasionally veers into determinist/essentialist arguments, which have all sorts of problems.
[–] Commiejones@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

These arguments are all framed in the western individualist mindset. Just because there is no hope of seeing success in your lifetime is not a reason to help the process forward. Communism will come regardless of what any westerner does. The tides of history don't depend on any one person but that doesn't absolve people choosing to do their duty being part of the tide.

[–] bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 2 months ago

滴水穿石! 👍

Water droplets drill the rock.

[–] Makan@lemmygrad.ml -2 points 2 months ago

Western Marxists are a blight to be honest.

[–] Makan@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 2 months ago

I've read Domenico Losurdo, but honestly, I've also read Hinterland, and frankly, most people in China aren't "good comrades" either; most aren't communist and neither was it with the Soviet Union.

You don't need everyone to be a communist and anti-imperialist; there are more anti-imperialists in the USA, judging by the orgs, than there are outright anti-imperialist communists (excluding the fucking PatSocs).

[–] Makan@lemmygrad.ml -1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

From what I've heard though, Perry Anderson's work on Western Marxism is a good read and I have it on my list.

[–] grabonex@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

Wait, from the perspective of a Third Worldist, isn’t Perry Anderson’s Western Marxism precisely the problem? That’s at least what I gathered, without having read Losurdo specifically, from reviews of his work such as this one https://monthlyreview.org/press/201187/

[–] bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

yes, it's precisely that. its like recommending kautsky after mentioning lenin.

[–] Makan@lemmygrad.ml 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I've heard mixed things, good and bad, and that's why I (partly) intend to read it, but keep in mind that Monthly Review, while good, isn't the only authority on Marxism-Leninism.

I will give you my thoughts and report back on the book; at the very least, Perry Anderson has been quite critical of Western Marxism.

[–] bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

heard from whom? Perry Anderson is literally the embodiment of western marxism.

[–] Makan@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

We talking about the same one?

[–] bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

The book i mentioned by Losurdo is literally a reply to Perry Anderson, and you are here recommending me his work! 😂 This is as if after recommending you to read Lenin, you replied me with saying that i should read Kautsky ffs.

[–] Makan@lemmygrad.ml -1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I was not, I think. I was just saying that I heard good things about Perry Anderson's work.

But I see that you weren't referring to Perry Anderson's work, but Domenico Losurdo's here.

[–] bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Read the things before recommending them, you're here throwing trotstkyist anti-AES writers as recommendations.

[–] Makan@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 2 months ago

I am not and I read everything, even Hinterland, which is anti-AES to a degree, but that's not the point of the book, and it's observations cannot be denied and are well-argued and researched.

[–] Makan@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Also, I didn't make a recommendation.

Edit: Except for Hinterland, of course.