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view the rest of the comments
But its in agreement with the voice actors. I don't get the big deal. I'm not pro AI but why would you abandon a game you enjoy for that reason? Praise them for making an Unreal engine game that looks and runs great.
If SAG hadn't gone on strike, Netflix would also have been making agreements with actors to use their voice and likeness without actually offering future work too. Was SAG wrong to push against this?
Just because someone makes a deal doesn't mean it isn't a toxic business practice that's bad for the industry or the people involved in it. People also agree to work for subpar wages, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't push for higher minimum wages.
Because desperate voice actors famously have so much leverage in contract negotiations, right? Why do you think Hollywood actors and writers unions went on strike in 2023?
While i think it sucks, and the only reason they take this weird approach is that the embark guy is a turbo AI bro. What i don't understand why they even bother, since arc raiders has only like 10 voice lines
I agree, this game has an awesome tech team making a clear counter-argument to UE5 haters (I hate UE5, they used very well imho). The graphism are cool and the art is really a work of art! I love the world design, lore, color grading, design-language, weapon design, etc.
The voice acting got through what I consider my keen 6th sense of AI-detection (which scares me tbh). But this is something that I cannot let go, I don’t want to. Even though everything else is (for a multiplayer game) top-notch imo.
What’s the boundary if we let them do this to one aspect of the game then? What amount of AI slop are we going to accept in the future if we allow corporations to AI-creep into everything?
I want to vote with my wallet and with my voice to support what I think isn’t the right direction.
Even though the voice actors signed the contract: I, as a customer/fan, don’t want workers signing off their ability to work more. These voice actors won’t ever work again with Embark now, Embark don’t need another recording session from them. Ok, actors waved that opportunity away willingly. But I don’t want the whole industry to become like this.
It’s not because the genAI trend isn’t going away that we aren’t allowed to adapt to it. My adaptation is to fight for an AI-free label.
PS: On another front, Embark has made millions, if not more on this game. Don’t tell me they HAD to use genAI instead of paying those voice actors for reshoot to begin with.
I love the dev behind ARC Raiders. I hate the management team that forced AI into the project (I can't prove this claim, call that a hunch)
The reason I've heard they are doing it so they can pump out dialoge faster and they don't have to let the voice actors come in for every line whenever they add a new map with new way points for example.
If its purely for the sake of velocity, than the performers should be compensated the same as if they were in studio. This is a slippery slope.
I understand that this would be costly. But imho this isn't a good reason. There is imo only two ethic ways to solve this kind of problem:
*: As I said, Embark is a big company, they made millions of dollars. They can afford it. It is absurd to me to allow such a big structure to "cut costs" by removing the human factors.
Do you know the specifics of their contracts with the VA-s? Are you certain they're not paying the VA-s for using their voice (even if it is AI generated)? What is the ethical dilemma if VA-s are getting paid whenever a new voiceline is created?
the voice actors were paid to create the text-to-speech system, yes. that was why they were hired in the first place.
But are they also getting paid after the fact? Let's say $50 any time a new voiceline is added to the game using their voice. Because Embark is using a tool to do the work someone would've done manually, they would've had to pay the person otherwise so I think a royalty-like payment any time the VA voice is used is completely fair. Otherwise it becomes what people are complaining about, that they're effectively paying a one time fee for the VA voice and then use it for free for forever.
yes, that's what they agreed to and were paid for. and that's perfectly fine, they weren't duped and had no issues with it, so even the flimsy moral outrage people come up with over supposed rights to things they create doesn't apply.
Call me crazy but I think people getting cheated out of the fruits of their labor, even if they themselves might've signed their it away, should be criticized.
they aren't being cheated. the labor they signed up and were paid for was recording the voices for the TTS system. you might not like the fact they did that, but that doesn't change facts. attempting to lie about it just shows your level of intellectual bankruptcy.
I don't know what kind of work you do but let's say your work requires you to log into some kind a system that somehow knows to track the work you do. Now imagine you start your work and your co-worker logs themselves in your place. You do the labor, they get the benefit. Are you being cheated?
The VA would do that labor if there was no TTS with their voice as a model. The VA labor goes into that model because it is their voice. They do the labor but someone else benefits from it? Are they not being cheated?
And final thought experiment. If the VA-s owned the TTS system and Embark asks for a new voiceline. Are the VA-s supposed to give that new voiceline away for free just because some TTS system generated it? Wouldn't Embark cheat them out their pay if they said "You made it for free so we should be able to use it for free."?
The intellectual bankruptcy comes from you because instead of actually thinking about the situation you hide behind the "But they agreed to it" argument. People also agreed with indenture servitude, doesn't mean it's acceptable.
they were paid specifically to make the TTS and voice modulation system. none of the rest of your argument makes any sense whatsoever, because the core fundamental idea behind your entire argument is that they were "cheated". they were not. they did the labor, they got the compensation. people were removed because artists "weren't being paid" for their work with AI, so somebody actually does pay them and you're still whining. it just shows that you were never concerned with the artist in the first place.
I'm not hiding at all. to be perfectly frank, as an anarchist, I don't believe in copyright to begin with, and have no issue with genAI copying the work of artists. ideas can not be owned, no matter what some capitalist stans such as yourself believe, and it's ridiculous people say it's "theft" in the first place.
but that isn't even what's happening here. these VAs were paid to create the system, knowing all along that puritains like you would villainize them for their work for no other reason than you think you should get to tell other people how they can live their lives. the sheer narcissism that you're displaying is beyond belief.
Apparently you do think that indentured servitude, at least to the extent where the person agrees to step into servitude, is completely fine. After all they agreed to the contract.
It’s not indentured servitude, and that’s a weak ass argument trying to spin it like that. Nobody with the brains evolution gave a snail is falling for that shit. And you should be embarrassed that that’s the best argument you can come up with.
It’s such a blatantly, self-evidently wrong argument, that I’m not even going to dignify it with a counter argument because frankly, such grade-school bullshit like that is beneath both of us.
Since you decided to ignore my argument all I can do is attack your stupid argument, which is that the signed contract is all that matters. I'm attacking it by stating you don't have a problem with indentured servitude as long the servant accepts the contract. That is not the same thing as stating VA work is somehow indentured servitude, please be capable of telling the difference here. If the agreement is all that matters then you have to be okay with indentured servitude in the manner I originally described.
Once again, not indentured servitude. I’m not reading the rest of your comment because I doubt it’s more intelligent than the rest. Words have meanings, and you don’t get to just insist something and it be true. Your comments are MAGA level delusions, and I’m not interested in arguing them because you’re a zealot who has come to this thread with the certainty that you cannot be wrong. There’s no point in arguing with someone who can’t accept that reality doesn’t bend to their self-righteous whims.
The irony of calling someone a zealot who can't be wrong, and then straight up ignoring all criticism of your argument. You are right, there is no point in arguing with someone like you.
You haven’t provided any valid criticism of my argument. You might think what you’ve said is smart, but it is not and you should be embarrassed for even having tried such a ridiculous argument.
If a someone says the sky is purple, you don’t argue with them because it makes you look like an idiot. Everyone knows they are wrong, because the reality is so self evident that any engagement with that argument lends it credibility. I won’t give credibility to your ridiculous notions.
Pretty zealous of you to dictate what is or isn't a valid argument. If my argument is so wrong why not instantly debunk it instead of playing this stupid ring around the Rosie?
We can play the same game if you want. Your argument that they signed the contract is not a valid argument because I think it's utterly stupid and I shouldn't be addressing it in the first place. Come back with a real argument.
I already did. what Embark is ding is not indentured servitude. saying it is doesn't change reality, no matter how much you wish otherwise.
make a real one to begin with. you haven't made an argument worth responding to. you're claiming something is what it isn't. that's not an argument, that's wishful thinking. you've completely failed here.
If you had bothered to read ANYTHING I SAID you'd know that was not my argument.
I made 3 points at the start, all of which you just ignored and said they signed a contract so nothing else matters.
and you've decided that since you object to what you think is AI, that what those VAs feel doesn't matter. you're strutting around like the typical liberal peacock, telling other people what they should be offended by. you're not bright enough to see that you're totally removing their agency from them and stripping them of their right to self determination, something which you accuse Embark of doing. of the two of us, who is the bigger narcissist here? of the two of us, who is the one treating the workers like they're worth nothing and their opinions don't matter? me, who says they should have agency in how they work, or you, who you should get to decide how they work?
you're not a good person. and you're not a smart person either, with the arguments you've been making. you're a typical capitalist, who thinks you should get the final say over the rights and self determination of people you obviously see as worth less than you. how utterly shameful.
You're the bigger narcissist here. You're literally making up statement I did not make to have a point to argue against. You can't bother to read anything I say (or alternatively you can't read, doesn't really matter to me which it is). You act high and mighty every chance you get.
So I'm not going to address anything else because talking to you is pointless. You're arguing with a wall because I don't even need to be here. You're not going to read what I say, you're going to make up arguments I never made, you argue your own made up arguments to be right and then call me stupid for having your make-belief arguments. You are the wall you're arguing with.
you're not even capable of understanding the deeper context of the arguments you're making. truly shameful. not only are you placing yourself on a pedestal and stripping away the rights and agency of others, you're not even capable of realizing what you're doing. you think you're an ally, when in fact like most liberals you're just perpetrating the systemic problems with capitalism. you think your opinion is the only valid one, thus reducing everyone else to mere objects for you to decide the proper fate of.
here's my advice to you. stop telling people what's in their best interests. they are the only ones who get to decide that, and you don't have any right to say what is best for another person.
The fact that you think that's advice to me just shows how little you actually care about my point of view. Get out of here you narcissist.
your point of view is abusive to the people who took this job, so no, I don't care about it. furthermore, it's important that I call out people who act like you are, because the way you're acting is absolutely incompatible with my anarchist lifestyle, where an individuals right to self-determination is sacrosanct. I'm focused on building a society that values the individual, you're interested in building one where people can only support themselves so long as you approve of their work. that makes you no better than any right-wing religious nutjob, and absolutely an enemy of working class people everywhere.
not all viewpoints are equal, and yours are shockingly bad.
It's pretty fucking ironic of you to talk about "individuals right to self-determination is sacrosanct" while you zealously disrespect my beliefs and push your own onto me. Who would've thunk a narcissist like you is also a hypocrite.
if by "pushing my beliefs" you mean telling you shouldn't infringe on the rights of others, then sure. add not understanding what irony is to your list of shortcomings. I don't respect the beliefs of racists or religious nutjobs either. some viewpoints do not deserve respect. if you want to practice those beliefs, do it to yourself and nobody else. don't demand other people abide by your abusive ideology. because if you do, then you're gonna get pushback, and it will be well deserved.
self-determination doesn't mean you get to oppress people because you don't like their work.
You don't even know what my point is because you don't care. I never said anything about oppressing others. If anyone is oppressing anyone it's you oppressing me.
Marketing this as "text-to-speech" is oversimplyfying at best, dishonest at worst imho. People need to work, we can't blame the voice actors. But in the end they still are working against themselves/their peers.
it is literally a text-to-speech system. saying otherwise is just ignorant.
TTS has existed for decades, machine learning for less than 20 years, genAI as we know it for less than 5.
Those 3 things are not the same thing. Yes the genAI they used can be included as a TTS because it is one. But only in function.
You are playing on words here. Most people know TTS as a crappy old thing, here this is something way more advanced.
Even if it was the same thing to begin with. I wouldn't be like a company using a simple TTS capable of recreating the voice of a voice actor I like without paying them the same as if the company hired them.
you don't have to like it. just don't misrepresent what's going on because you don't have a good argument against it. it's not your opinion that's getting all your comments downvoted, it's the lying and moralizing.
I don't know the details. And I agree that if every line generated with their voice is paid (at least partially) I don't see as big of a problem as I stated.
But call me cynical: I don't think they were paid for generated voice lines. I would gladly be corrected on this matter though.
That was the case with The Finals (Embark's previous game) according to testimony by the team, and they are using the same development practices here.
I'm not here to argue with you. I dont mind them using Ai. They are upfront about it. You should do whatever you think is the right thing.
Sorry if I sounded angry or something. My goal is to debate around this subject I feel passionate about. I'm not really sure I would call all of this "being upfront" but that may be another subject.
I'm not an English native, so my words could be harsher that it should. Sorry again.
And thank you for answering and participating about the whole thing. No hard feelings I hope!
well, ethics aren't subjective, morals are. and there's nothing unethical about what they're doing here.
It seems to me you are playing with words. Pilaging all internet resources to create and profit on genAI isn't unethical to you?
Independent artists have found evidence that their work has been scraped to train most of big genAI tools for years now. That's A-OK for you?
first of all, yes. I'm an anarchist, I don't believe in copyright, it's capitalist bullshit. you can't own ideas. anything you create is as much mine as it is yours, and I'll use it for whatever purposes I want with or without your permission.
second, this isn't genAI, it's no different than the text-to-speech system that's been in use in PC for decades. don't come in here moaning about genAI when you don't even know what the system you're talking about even is.
don't feed the troll they say...
you imagined your poorly thought out argument was going to be some kind of gotcha.
that's too bad, considering most people are looking at this with a rational mind and don't agree with you, and you have no ability to change it by yourself.