A lot of our immigration was from student visas. And a lot of student visas were being abused, both to bring in cheap labour and to prop up diploma mills.

The government stepped in to protect domestic labour and the reputation of Canadian higher education institutions (education being one of our largest export markets)

[–] iocase@lemmy.zip 6 points 1 day ago

Don't forget housing... When you have 5-10 students sharing the rent on an overpriced home then landlords can charge much more. Low interest rates and massive immigration both inflated the hell out of property even more than it normally would have without them.

[–] DrBob@lemmy.ca 24 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

There was a policy decision around 30 years ago to deregulate tuition and cut funding to universities. Part of the arrangement was allowing massive differential fees for foreign students. So they have been propping up most universities, not just the diploma mills.

[–] TheJesusaurus@piefed.ca 19 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I really don't have an issue with student visas for actual students pursuing actual degrees from reputable universities. They are as close to printing free money as a country can get and it's really only a benefit for us as a nation.

[–] Foxer@lemmy.ca 2 points 20 hours ago

Yes and no. It is a tool that must be wielded like a scalpel and not a hammer.

If done perfectly right it can be a big benefit. But it is extremely easy to do it wrong. And the problem is even if you set it up right at the beginning it tends to take a life of its own on and go off the rails in a relatively short. Of time.

But in principle I agree with you that there are benefits. Not only does it reduce costs to our universities by providing income but more importantly it can make a lot of foreign nationals very comfortable with the idea of doing business in Canada and allow for connections chips that will further our ability to do business in those countries in the future

But it's just so easy for it to go wrong and when it goes wrong we run into real problems

[–] DrBob@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 day ago

You might want to sanitize the link. Your real identity is leaking.

[+] cecilkorik@lemmy.ca -10 points 1 day ago (5 children)

Maybe all the immigrants finally started to recognize the lies they were being told about living here being a comfortable family dream when it's actually unaffordable, inhumane and degrading wage-slavery. It's not much better for the average Canadian either, but at least most of us have some kind of family support system to fall back on, and we have the entire time we spend growing up here to come to terms with the reality of the lies that the economy and media sell us, instead of getting thrown into the deep end of this unfair economy like the immigrants do. No wonder so many of them turn to crime.

[–] gramie@lemmy.ca 15 points 1 day ago

It sure sounds like you have never lived anywhere else in your life, certainly not anywhere in the developing world. It's hard to conceive how much worse life is in a lot of places, unless you have lived there. Granted that people who can afford international student fees are in the upper class of most poor countries, but it doesn't take away from the very real increase in the standard of living.

[–] brianpeiris@lemmy.ca 17 points 1 day ago (2 children)

No wonder so many of them turn to crime.

I agreed with you until this point. What percentage of them "turn to crime"? Is that percentage higher than non-immigrants? My guess is that it's a negligible fraction.

[–] cecilkorik@lemmy.ca 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Sorry, I let my frustration turn to sarcasm and leak out, I don't actually believe immigrants have any meaningful impact on crime other than what the news likes to cherry pick. I apologise for the poor taste of that.

[–] brianpeiris@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 day ago

I appreciate you saying that. It's all good.

[–] DriftingLynx@lemmy.ca 8 points 1 day ago

It may actually bring crime down, but certainly the statistics don't bear out immigration causing increased crime rates.

https://www.mcgill.ca/newsroom/channels/news/does-immigration-really-increase-crime-347099

It's a growing misperception is what it is.

[–] corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 day ago

I'm gonna need sources for all that bunk you've written. It sounds very War Room.

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I mean, unless thay immigrated from Iceland or something, it's still going to be an improvement. The trick is that they're now at the bottom of the food chain, where often they were at the top, where they came from.

[+] Foxer@lemmy.ca -9 points 1 day ago (4 children)

The problem is the people leaving are the highly talented and valuable people economically speaking. The people that are staying are the low income low skill people who do not substantially increase our GDP per capita and in fact lower it

This is going to be more and more of a problem.

[–] grte@lemmy.ca 9 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Low income low skill people are still a net gain to society because they provide the secret ingredient that makes our economy function and grow: Demand. If their income is not enough to stimulate demand, that is because the minimum wage is too low.

[–] Foxer@lemmy.ca -4 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

Market economies are not built on demand. If all you have is demand then you have a failed economy because you will have runaway inflation the vast majority won't be able to afford the things they need

Which is precisely what's happening in Canada. The housing market has exploded because there's demand but not a sufficient supply. The strain on the medical systems is similar, demand increase faster than supply

Essentially you got it backwards. The magic in a market economy is the supply, and it is the nature of section economy that supply will appear to try and fill in demand. Loweskilled glow paid workers artificially ruin that dynamic and demand winds up outpacing supply with disastrous results

And their wages are too low because they're not worth anything. The system operates on the concept of being paid a dollar for the creation of a dollar's worth of value. To create higher value you need to have skills and abilities or assets which allow for that and that is exactly what is leaving Canada

[–] grte@lemmy.ca 7 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) (1 children)

Yes, market economies are built on demand. Neoclassical, supply side economics is a joke that centralizes wealth and destabilizes societies. It's a failure.

[+] Foxer@lemmy.ca -6 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

No they are not. And as the reality of the situation proves that I'm right and you are wrong. So there you go

[–] grte@lemmy.ca 6 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (1 children)

Yes they are, and the last 40 years of ever increasing wealth inequality totally discredits your economic philosophy. So there you go. Milton Friedman was a dumbass, make your peace with that fact.

[–] Foxer@lemmy.ca -4 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

The last 40 years proves I'm right even more 😆😆😆

Sorry kid. Try reading a book instead of getting her education from Facebook. Demand exist in every economic model, capitalism addresses the supply sideit is that effort that makes things work. The ability to create products and services including ones that didn't even exist before which creates new demand is what drives us. Demand is not what drives us immigrants don't produce the supply necessary to meet the demand and that creates inflation and weakens the economy

[–] grte@lemmy.ca 5 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

The last 40 years proves I’m right even more 😆😆😆

If you think extreme wealth inequality, stagnating wages, decreasing purchasing power for the average person, and the rise of reactionary politics is success. If, on the other hand, you are a reasonable person, you would think that's a really pathetic failure. Kid.

[–] Foxer@lemmy.ca -3 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

I didn't say whether or not it was a success I said it proved me right. Wealth inequality is something that people that don't understand how money works talk about. Whether or not someone else is richer than you has nothing to do with how rich you are. It's not a measure that has any particular value. Reactionary politics has nothing to do with our financial system that's something else.

And most of that is a product of the last 12 years or so. And much of that problem was created by an imbalance between the growth of our population and our lack of ability to supply the needs of that population. As I have already pointed out with regards to housing, medicine, education, etc.

And that becomes a cycle or death spiral where are inability to supply leads to inflationary pressure and low wages which leads to our inability to supply etc

So bringing in low-wage people in any way shape or form make the economy stronger. At best it can mask weaknesses and cover them up for a short time until they kind of blow up in your face.

[–] grte@lemmy.ca 5 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (1 children)

Wealth inequality is something that people that don’t understand how money works talk about. Whether or not someone else is richer than you has nothing to do with how rich you are. It’s not a measure that has any particular value.

Absolutely insane, ridiculous thing to believe. Obviously increasing wealth inequality matters a lot because it allows for those holding onto large amounts of wealth to outcompete greater and greater swathes of the population for resources. Which they are clearly doing as the average person's purchasing power goes down. Pretending like it doesn't matter is the most obvious propaganda from those benefiting from the status quo that one wonders how anyone could fall for it.

And reactionary politics absolutely follows from our financial system because that same wealth inequality and lowered purchasing power makes people, unsurprisingly, mad. And a lot of those mad people start looking for answers, many in reactionary places. I'll point to the MAGA movement in the US as a pretty obvious ongoing example.

[–] Foxer@lemmy.ca -3 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

You have a fundamentally flawed view of what wealth is. Well isn't a thing. It's not like there's a limited amount of wealthonium in the world and whoever holds it gets it and nobody else does. That's not how it works.

Wealth is created through activity. Without the activity there is no wealth. Therefore the supply of wealth is endless, the problems usually come with limits or issues with the activity

So no, increasing wealth inequity is not the issue. The issue is that people are struggling harder and harder to be able to do enough activity that's worth enough value to be able to get what they want. That's true whether there are wealthy people or not

So the underlying issue is that the middle class and poor class aren't able to create enough wealth to meet their needs and that has nothing to do with the wealthy. You don't address that by worrying about what the wealthier doing, you address that by creating more opportunity for the middle class and the poor. And funny enough to do that you need the help of the wealthy which they are more than happy to give if they feel that it will be successful

Right now the tax burden and other burdens on the middle class prevent any disposable income or time that would allow for them to increase the value of their skills or begin to acquire assets and that is the problem. The wealthy are not excited about starting new businesses or educational opportunities that would fix this because they see the country as failing

And no reactionary politics does not follow from financial systems in the slightest.

[–] grte@lemmy.ca 5 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

You have a fundamentally flawed view of what wealth is. Well isn’t a thing. It’s not like there’s a limited amount of wealthonium in the world and whoever holds it gets it and nobody else does. That’s not how it works.

Wealth is created through activity. Without the activity there is no wealth. Therefore the supply of wealth is endless, the problems usually come with limits or issues with the activity

This is silly. Wealth is not zero sum, but it's also not infinite. The reality is, Canada's economy will grow (assuming no recession) 0-3% in any given year, maybe 4-5% if it's a real barn burner of a year. If the top wealth bracket's wealth grows at a rate larger than that, it's because they are taking resources from the rest of us who's wealth did not grow at that rate.

So yes, increasing wealth inequality is the issue. Neoclassical economics might as well be astrology for all dumb assumptions it makes.

[–] Foxer@lemmy.ca -2 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

That's basic economics. Had you gone to a real school to study this stuff you might have realized it. Wealth is infinite, our capacity to generate it is limited. Your comment is no different than if somebody were to say there is a finite amount of kinetic energy in the universe. That's just not how it works

I know the wealthy aren't taking any resources from the rest of us. Wealthier in a position where they can create wealth at a higher and more effective rate. But interestingly enough that wealth creation actually benefits us and we make more than we would have as a result of it, not less

I'm afraid if you're poor it's your own damn fault you can't blame it on anyone else. You have every bit as much of potential to increase your wealth and become extremely wealthy as anyone else and if that was your primary focus in life you could certainly do that. While it takes a lot of work it's not terribly hard.

[–] grte@lemmy.ca 5 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (1 children)

Wealth is infinite, our capacity to generate it is limited.

Then talking about infinite wealth in the context of the actual world we live in is fucking stupid!

Almost as stupid as comparing the study of economics, a soft science, to physics.

[–] Foxer@lemmy.ca -3 points 13 hours ago (2 children)

No it's not, god it's like talking to A four-year-old.

The wealth is infinite. There can't be a shortage of it. Our capacity can be limited. Therefore when we're talking about the real world that we live in it is dumb to talk about wealth as if there's a shortage and it makes sense to discuss capacity to create wealth.

Can you just not smart enough to have this conversation I'm sorry. I'm trying my best here but you keep making statements that are absolutely asinine because you have fallen in love with this idea that somehow there's this limited supply of wealth out there and someone's hoarding it and that's why you don't have any. That's just not how it works

[–] grte@lemmy.ca 5 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

There can’t be a shortage of it. Our capacity can be limited.

Yes, we are finite beings in a finite world. The idea of infinite wealth in that context is absurd. I understand what you are saying, I just think it is stupid.

You seem to think your field of study is based on study of the natural world rather than founded on assumptions. As though what you are saying is natural law. It isn't.

[–] Foxer@lemmy.ca 1 points 10 hours ago

The beings are finite but the wealth is not. I don't know how to explain this more simply. If you fall into the ocean there's only so much water you can drink so your ability is finite but from a practical point of view the water is infant.

This is extremely simple, the point is the limit is the person not the wealth

And no I'm just trying to find a way to explain it to you that will make it easier for you to get your head around. Honestly I've never had this kind of trouble explaining this concept to someone. My mother gets this.

Bottom line is that your lack of wealth is not because somebody else is hoarding wealth.

[–] TheJesusaurus@piefed.ca 7 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Any citations?

[–] brianpeiris@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

This was one of the key points in the video. Their source is a TD Economics report, which in turn references a report from The Institute for Canadian Citizensihp:

The Institute for Canadian Citizenship’s Leaky Bucket 2025 report shows that onward migration is highest among immigrants with doctoral degrees, strong earnings potential, and experience in management, ICT, engineering, and science based occupations. Within five years of entering Canada, highly educated immigrants are more than twice as likely to leave as lower skilled immigrants.

https://economics.td.com/ca-silent-brain-drain

[–] TheJesusaurus@piefed.ca 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

But... That's fine? We would expect them to? They came here for education. That's not skilled immigrants leaving, it's customers going home with what they paid for

[–] BassetHound@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

The skilled people are Citizens and PRs going to work in the US because the same jobs in Canada pay half as much with higher taxes.

[–] corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 day ago

That's over now. Who wants to get a pricy Canadian degree just to go get rounded-up in America and maybe killed in the gulags?

[–] Foxer@lemmy.ca -5 points 1 day ago

You mean other than the ones you were already giving you sea lion? LOL

Either make a counter argument or admit that I'm right even if you don't like it. This kind of nonsense just makes you look bad

[–] Typotyper@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

You could argue the brain drain has been going on since the late 50s

[–] Foxer@lemmy.ca -3 points 1 day ago

You could but not successfully 😁 Joking aside though there have been other instances of brain drains taking place in the past. I think to suggest that there's been a consistent brain drain for that. Of time would be severely erroneous and there are definitely been times when we attracted people to Canada. But this is definitely one of the worst and we are seeing people leave for the record percent of them being exactly the kind of people we want to stay

And it shows up in a lot of stats. Our GDP per capita is horrible and that's one of the reasons, our investments climate is cored, etc etc. We have to find a way to reverse that and quickly

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org -2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

We're still the most educated country on Earth by a good margin, so it's hard to see it getting that bad.

But yes, our immigration system is fucked. We select for all the best and brightest people, and then put them to work at Tim Hortons.

[–] BillyTheKid2@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 day ago

It always surprises me when I see the stats. We really do have a lot of degrees per cappita

[–] Foxer@lemmy.ca -3 points 1 day ago

Unfortunately being educated is not in and of itself a protection from that kind of thing. As is easily seen by a cursory examination of the statistics. Our talented people are leaving and that is a major problem and worse Now intelligent people are just using Canada as a stepping stone with the intent of leaving shortly after they get here because it's easier to get into countries like America from Canada than it is from some of the countries they come from.

Either way we're getting slaughtered