All things neurodivergent and relating to the broader neurodivergent community (and communities).
See also this community's sister subs Feminism, LGBTQ+, Disability, and POC
This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.
Thank you for posting this, I understand the nuance of this and agree that folks who have been through trauma and come out of it with these understandable reactions and coping mechanisms are not necessarily to blame. I would rather focus on healing and helping.
However, quick aside there's no such thing as 'sociopathy', even officially it's now called 'ASPD'. Just thought you should know!
OP you are awesome and you've gotta be fuming over all the people in this thread saying a mental disorder causes abuse and doing exactly the mean behaviour you complained about. I say let's get them to say what they mean in direct terms and report them for it. The terrible behaviour in this thread doesn't belong on Beehaw or anywhere else.
I mean, you are doing the exact same thing that my NPD parent would do, which is getting defensive instead of attempting to communicate your thoughts through arguments while attempting to understand other's perspectives.
There are many neurodivergent people that have a number of issues because of untreated/undiagnosed NPDs that refuse to acknowledge they need assistance. Just the idea of being called narcissistic is offensive.
The most voted comments might not agree with OP but they are being very polite. I don't see the terrible behavior you are seeing.
Just the idea of being called narcissistic is offensive.
Yes, I've been called a nar*******t and it was deeply offensive. It reminds me of the times I got called a re***d, or a sp**g, or a fa***t, or a tr***y. Half of those other slurs are also spins on the name of a mental disorder.
getting defensive instead of attempting to communicate your thoughts through arguments while attempting to understand other’s perspectives.
Marginalised, oppressed people are not responsible for empathising with our oppressors. While doing so can often be helpful to our causes, it should never be considered a requirement, and it should certainly never be called out by majorities demanding that we do it in order to earn respect. It's impossible to dehumanise, attack, and villify someone for how they were born, and then reasonably expect them to be civil, polite, and empathetic. Some of us, like myself, are polite and empathetic, and we do take the time to understand how our oppressors feel. But we are the exception, and there's a very compelling reason why that is.
Hey, um, you're all over this thread and you seem like you've really got an axe to grind here. What's your story?
My parents were abusive, and I never developed the part of my brain that feels inherent self love and worth. I got a personality disorder. And I had the right genetics and environment to get NPD out of that abuse instead of another personality disorder like BPD or ASPD. That means my fake self-esteem comes from grandiose self ideas instead of defining myself by another person or by rejecting society utterly like those other disorders.
This wasn't a problem until I entered young adulthood. Over a period of about a year, I came to terms with my NPD. And then I proceeded to suffer many years of abuse for my disorder. It started before I ever knew the disorder, when society told me narc****sts were evil abusers. My exploration of my disorder started as a fear. I thought it was paranoia at first. But no, my worst fears were true, I had childhood trauma and genetic bad luck, and that combination made me what society considers the worst thing a person can be. According to someone in this thread, we're basically the same as pedophiles.
I never abused anyone. Never manipulated anyone. I know it says exploitative behaviour is a criterion in the DSM, but first off the DSM is full of bad information on personality disorders, and second you don't have to have any of the "bad" criteria to quality for the disorder. I'm haughty, pompous. I dream of greatness. I'm easily hurt when I fail or when I'm threatened. Quick to anger, but only in self defence. I can turn my empathy off at will. According to hundreds of people I have met, that makes me a born abuser. A monster.
Someone doesn't even have to know I have NPD to sense it. For some reason, a lot of people take someone else's big ego, even if it's a private affair, as a personal attack. I'm not even allowed to think highly of myself, because according to some people that's inequality and fascism. And yet if I don't, then I don't fundamentally feel that I'm worthy of love. I don't think I deserve to live. It's trauma. It's a disorder.
I'm the only person I've ever hurt with my NPD. But the vilification by others has done far worse to me. They demand humility. If I'm not humble, they say I deserve to die. If I am humble, I think I deserve to die.
And here comes OP, saying my pain is right. That I do deserve to feel upset by how many people don't believe in support for "monsters" like me. And yet with such an inoffensive, kind post, everyone has to change the subject to supposed abuses I am responsible for, just for having my brain the way it is.
I respond with the anger borne of the trauma of a lifetime of abuse from society. And that anger is justified. I do not speak with violence, I do not attack, but I am, privately, angry.
Oh wow, I know you are venting here and I don't want to take that from you. I get that you are frustrated. I have a similar story and am also mostly incapable of self-love or self-worth. But instead of turning out a pwNPD, I got to have all the empathy my mother is lacking.
But please, you are doing standard victim blaming here. It's probably not worth going into detail here because you don't seem self-aware enough to get why your actions may be perceived very differently by others than by you.
I get that society is in so far unfair to people with NPD or pedophiles because it does usually only portrait their worst qualities. But neither pwNPD nor pedophiles are monsters. That's why I compared NPD to pedophilia in my other comment. You have the traits to abuse others, but the choice is still yours. People with pedophilia also deserve our empathy. The struggle must be really hard on you. In yet another comment I cited many studies I found on NPD and what they basically all talked about was not only the abusiveness and lack of empathy of pwNPD but also the strong interpersonal problems they face.
I'm sorry for you, but please at least try to be a bit self-aware and don't gaslight us into thinking pwNPD are not commonly abusive and manipulative.
You were asked to attempt to better communicate by presumably another neurodivergent person in a neurodivergent community. Don't use some bullshit analogy of oppression to justify your lack of empathy.
We're literally too busy doing damage control. This is just the 'but why don't you tolerate intolerance' argument. I'm sure there are people struggling with this stuff who manage to avoid hurting and manipulating the people around them, and that's great for them.
But we also live in a world rife with abuse and exploitation, and we won't get past it by just ignoring manipulation. We've got all these other people who've been victimized, so we kind of need to focus on them with this particular pattern.
You can't just will someone else to stop abusing others and face their own shit, and frankly it's incredibly hard to tell the difference between an abuser in the calm part of their cycle and someone who's stopped repeating it.
For me the litmus test there is honesty. I've given people I've known were manipulative another chance, but if they show that their interactions are still based in fundamental dishonesty, what am I supposed to do with that? Sacrifice myself endlessly in the hopes that they decide to stop treating me like a punching bag?
I think not. I think I'll be out here keeping an eye out for dishonesty at the root of people's interactions with others and run like hell when I find it so I don't waste another second of my life being controlled and tormented.
How come OP's talking about NPD, which is a disability, and you're talking about abusers? NPD isn't abuse. Did you reply to the wrong post by mistake?
‘but why don’t you tolerate intolerance’ argument
This was my exact thought. This seems like someone trying to excuse this shit. You can dress it up as just a personality disorder, but these personality types are toxic.
What kind of response are you expecting? Or is this just a rant/vent? I don't agree with your statement entirely, many people would also want people with NPD, psychopathy or sociopathy to get support. The problem, however, is that it is really hard for most to give people with strong narcissistic or manipulative traits the support they need. Similarly, I also have compassion with pedophiles and wish them the support they need. But obviously I don't want them to be enabled (or even allowed) to follow their sexuality. Same goes for people with narcissistic and manipulative traits. I want them to get support but not be enabled or allowed to hurt or manipulate others.
Recently I stumbled upon this podcast called "The Bright Sessions" where they basically envision neurodivergent people and/or people with mental disorders as having superhuman powers. There also is a character that might fall into your description of people who are not treated with compassion. The podcast really explores what that means and how compassion can look like with a person like that.
ETA: and this comes from a person who has been traumatized over decades by various people with strong narcissistic traits.
NPD doesn't cause manipulation. And people with NPD aren't more likely to abuse others.
Do you have any references to back up this claim? From personal experience I most strongly disagree with your statement. I have suffered all my life from narcissistic people and even many years of therapy were not sufficient to surpass my childhood trauma.
Also, if you don't want to take a subjective perspective there is really a looot of research that shows how abusive people with NPD are.
I could go on citing studies on this. I wonder what counter-evidence you'll be able to produce.
As someone with a NPD parent I don't know if I could agree with you. But yeah, me and my siblings might not be on the good statistics.
It's not "something we don't like".
If that's your take I'm not sure what reaction you're looking for.
Obviously people should get the support/help they need.
The problem is that people with those disorders are the ones most likely to be the abusers. They are also the least likely to seek out help. There's a reason it's called "The Dark Triad".
I hope the responses here resonate with you and help you clear up misunderstandings you have.
This is the most NPD post ever trying to make this comparison. People with disabilities or mental disorders that hurt people when unmanaged SHOULD be treated differently. No it's not the same thing as ensuring blind or people in wheel chairs can get around without assistance or making sure people with autism get job opportunities.