this post was submitted on 17 Jun 2025
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Green Energy

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[–] Hotzilla@sopuli.xyz 10 points 4 days ago

Adding little bit extra context here.

In Finland large number of homes are heated by district heating. This means there is heat plant or combined heat and power (CHP) plant, which heats water to around 70C - 110C (158F - 230F) and that is distributed to homes.

In this system heat batteries are useful, and near all CHP plants in Finland have done heat battery in last few years. These heat batteries are just 7-store high insulated water storage. Usefulness to store just water is that system is relatively simple. Water in - water out. This makes it that the turbine in CHP can be run more freely towards electricity price, not the network heat demand.

Plain heat plants generally don't yet have these, because the buffer created by heat battery is not that much needed. But if these sand batteries can store heat longer, and because they might be cheaper to build, it can make sense.

Source: I work in company that owns 19 district heating networks.

[–] Olgratin_Magmatoe@slrpnk.net 26 points 5 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

it’s hard to get any cheaper than the crushed soapstone now housed inside an insulated silo in the small town of Pornainen. The soapstone was basically trash — discarded from a Finnish fireplace maker.

Hell yeah. I'm glad that this works with that kind of sand, and is being done without the kind we're running out of.

[–] umbrella@lemmy.ml 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

we are running out of sand??

[–] Disaster@sh.itjust.works 4 points 4 days ago

Like everything else...if you want to get into the details (which are important)...It's complicated

[–] SplashJackson@lemmy.ca 18 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I heard that the electrolytic medium used in this battery is coarse and gets everywhere

[–] Chee_Koala@lemmy.world 21 points 5 days ago

They report about 10/15% loss when doing heat -> heat. Cost per Kilowatt of storage about 25 euro, compared to 115 if lithium batteries were used.

[–] perestroika@slrpnk.net 8 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

It's a pretty neat system:

  • can be set up anywhere
  • can supply high grade heat (process heat, not mere space heating heat)

However, heat stores are subject to scaling laws which don't favour sand on the large scale, at least unless it's underground (and then you have to keep groundwater out to avoid vaporizing it). Large thermal stores benefit from storing heat in water, and placing the water deep underground, so the boiling point rises. If local rock has low thermal conductivity, even better.

For comparison Helsinki (.fi) has a 10 GWh underground thermal store. Where I live, Tallinn (.ee) will soon get a 1 GWh surface thermal store. And Vantaa (.fi) will soon complete a whopping 90 GWh thermal store that's located 100 m underground, so their water will boil at 140 C instead of the usual 100 C. Boiling points up to 300 C are attainable in practise, then the curve starts leveling out.

[–] con_fig@programming.dev 3 points 5 days ago

That's so cool, thanks for the info!

[–] hit_the_rails@reddthat.com 11 points 5 days ago

What a stupidly simple yet clever idea.

[–] mlfh@lemmy.sdf.org 9 points 5 days ago

100MWh from that one little silo, that's incredible.

Here's the operator's website https://polarnightenergy.com/

[–] yuri@pawb.social 5 points 5 days ago (1 children)

this shit is so cool. it’s like those potential-energy-battery ideas with the stacked blocks, but ACTUALLY efficient!!

[–] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 5 points 5 days ago (1 children)

efficient because heat is used for heat. (district heating system). getting electricity from heat is relatively inefficient. Stacked blocks are relatively efficient but concerns over wind resistance.

[–] Hamartiogonic@sopuli.xyz 3 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

Conversions tend to be inefficient, but in this case you can use only the best kinds of conversions.

They’ll use cheap electricity to heat up the sand, which is approximately 100% efficient. Then, the heat is stored for a while, and that’s when some of it will leak through the walls. Not a whole lot though, because of insulation and a small surface to volume ratio. Eventually, the heat is used to heat up water, which is another highly efficient conversion.

If you convert another form of energy back to electricity, you tend to lose a lot of it as heat. Physics just loves to use heat as the final destination for all sorts of energies, so it only makes sense to aim for utilizing it instead of treating it as a byproduct.

[–] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 2 points 4 days ago

H2 makes the best long term electrical storage, because not only is it more efficient than other cheap alternatives, it can be even more efficient with heat use, and it is economically transportable/exportable and so is not capped by utilization/capacity constraints.

heat storage is extremely useful for complementing winter solar in low winter sun places. Including at small scale. Hydronic floor heating is most efficient use of heat. Heat pumps can very efficiently gain 30C of temperature gain. Sand and construction waste box with water pipes, and heat resistors, flowing through it, can store heat well above 100C that water doesn't ineffienctly. 2000 liters of just water is sufficient in most locations with a fireplace or EV backup, but sand/dirt/gypsum of 500L to 1000L significantly boosts resilence and heat capacity.

[–] Hirom@beehaw.org 3 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Pornainen’s battery is charged using electricity from the grid

How so, do they use heater resistors or a heat pump?

Electricity may be cheap sometimes but still, heater resistors aren't the most efficient.

[–] perestroika@slrpnk.net 2 points 4 days ago (1 children)

They use resistive heating, so they can only charge it dirt cheap when there is surplus solar or wind.

[–] Hirom@beehaw.org 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Okay, I guess the heat pumps aren't suitable due to the economics or maybe cannot reach high enough temperatures.

[–] perestroika@slrpnk.net 1 points 3 days ago

As much as I've understood, yes - heat pumps have difficulty with reaching high temperatures.