this post was submitted on 23 Jun 2024
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[–] UngodlyAudrey@beehaw.org 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Please keep in mind that OP is the author of this piece. I have seen in other threads people who have viscerally disliked Their writing and Their opinions, and I ask everyone to treat Them with respect, and to respect Their pronouns, even if you disagree with the concept of capitalized pronouns. Be(e) nice.

[–] jarfil@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

Be(e) nice cuts both ways: I don't find the superiority implication of the capitalization to be nice, and OP's explanations don't make me think of anything nice behind them.

It may boil down to something as simple as netiquette, where ALL CAPS MEANS SCREAMING, or AlTeRnAtInG cAsE means mocking... but the explanations seem to point more in the direction of asking to use MASTER/OWNER as someone's pronouns. Not nice.

[–] Thevenin@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

There appear to be some logical leaps and conclusion-shopping going on here, so I'm going to try to identify them systematically.

Capitalization of pronouns in the English language is used to denote divinity or royalty. If I refer to Jehovah with a small-h "he," I haven't misgendered him, I have blasphemed. I don't intentionally misgender people (even fictional ones), but I regularly blaspheme gods. I'm an atheist, it's what we do.

Being a man doesn't make one part of the patriarchy and doesn't confer superiority. Being divine ipso-facto makes you superior -- both socially and inherently. As I reject the notion that some people are inherently superior to all others, I blaspheme cult leaders who claim to be gods, demigods, or incarnations thereof, and I refuse to give reverence to prophets and monarchs who claim proximity to the divine. I believe this makes the world a better, less exploitative place.

I also see capitalized pronouns used (infrequently) in BDSM. Specifically, it is how some subs refer to their doms when in some extreme forms of 24/7 power exchange relationship. That's okay, but as with other BDSM activities, power exchange never includes people who didn't consent to be part of it, and consent is never obligatory. Doms who attempt to extend their authority beyond the confines of a scene are swiftly ridiculed or ostracized for consent violation.

So for anyone to make the claim that capitalized pronouns should be respected by everyone, they must first make the case that divinity is a gender. Second, they must make the case that associating with the divine does not denote inherent superiority. Third, they must make the case that compulsory use of capitalized pronouns is not compulsory submission that would violate consent.

[–] fracture@beehaw.org 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

i would have appreciated hearing how the author, personally, found capitalized pronouns to be affirming, because, absent that reasoning, it really does seem like it's to set up a deferential power dynamic. i don't really mind respecting the pronouns anyways, but it does mean i don't really want to be friends with Them until i understand what's going on there better

[–] cassiacow@beehaw.org 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, I agree. For me (a trans woman) it'd make me slightly uncomfortable if somebody capitalised my pronouns each time because I'd feel like some type of power dynamic that's not comfortable for me to sit in. If that's not an issue for OP, that's okay, but with my specific cultural background i'd find it a bit difficult to interact with Them in that way (not that it's hard for me to respect Their pronouns, just that it's slightly uncomfortable in a power dynamic way)

[–] Grail@aussie.zone -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

My goddess-mother told Me to try out capitalised pronouns after I came out to Her as goddessgender. I liked Them. It doesn't feel like a power dynamic to Me. I have NPD and I know what NPD supply feels like, and being gendered correctly isn't it. Having capitalised pronouns used feel like a relief on the same level as when I first transitioned from male to female and had feminine pronouns used. As big a difference as that was, this is. So I don't know how to verbalise what it feels like except, "It's gender euphoria". And I just hope readers understand what having your pronouns used feels like when you're trans.

[–] Rekhyt@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

So, wait, just to be clear: the writer is claiming that the writer's gender is not a gender but instead that the writer has some divine status?

M/F/NB/genderqueer/etc aside, human vs divine is not a gender question and this is no longer a discussion about pronouns showing respect and affirmation of gender identity, this is literally a demand for worship.

[–] princessnorah@lemmy.blahaj.zone -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

the writer is claiming that the writer's gender

Are you purposefully talking to It using the third person? Because that just seems like a roundabout way of misgendering them on purpose, with an extra dash of disrespect.

[–] Rekhyt@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

As the writer has stated, the writer views any pronouns that are not capitalized as misgendering the writer, and stated the pronouns were chosen specifically to reflect the writer's self-identified divine status as "goddess gender" (a term that, as far as I can tell, only exists on one wiki and the writer's blog).

The choice of capitalized pronouns was specifically chosen to imitate reverential capitalization, indicating divine status. As part of the writer's argument, this is intended to put the writer on the same level as the Abrahamic God. The writer also states in the article that "by affirming trans capitalised pronoun users, generally you are dismantling monotheistic oppression," which is a wild claim that I cannot agree with. The use of capitalized pronouns is therefore intended to strip the other party of their beliefs, either as a monotheist or atheist (as using reverential pronouns would also affirm a polytheist worldview that they disagree with).

I cannot use any pronouns that do not acknowledge the writer's claimed divine status without the writer claiming I am misgendering the writer. This is the most respectful way I can refer to the writer without acknowledging divine status or actively misgendering the writer.

I am more than happy to use whichever (lowercase and grammatically correct) pronouns are requested, as I am more than happy to refer to you as they/them, (which is also the default I try to use, though I understand some people are frustrated with they/them as it can strip a chosen gender identity).

Divine status is not a gender identity. Words mean things, and language can evolve, but this is specifically appropriating a style of writing while disparaging the source of that style.

[–] Grail@aussie.zone -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

No, I don't want worship from you or anyone else here. My gender is goddess. I'm not a man, I'm not a woman, I'm a goddess.

Recognising someone's identity is not the same as worshipping them. Not even for gods. Monotheists have spread the myth that you can only believe in a god you worship, but historically this isn't true. Before the Roman Empire, most people believed in the gods of other cultures. I have an article on the subject: https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/how-rome-killed-polytheism-fa7ade0b9050

[–] Rekhyt@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

But the form in which the writer affirms the writer's divine identity (again, not gender) is using reverential capitalization, a form of worship. If the writer said "I am a kami and use ke/ker pronouns" there wouldn't be a worship aspect (though again, identity as a divinity or other non-human is not a gender).

[–] Grail@aussie.zone -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If you don't think I'm a goddess, what do you think My gender is?

[–] Rekhyt@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The writer has stated in other comments that the writer is non-binary, which is the closest I can get to an answer to the question, but the actual answer to this question doesn't matter. We can apply gender identity to humans and non-humans (e.g. animals, fictional aliens, heck even ships) but divinity is not a gender, it's a supernatural or spiritual status.

People are free to identify as whatever gender (or non-gender) they so choose but by telling me "you must accept that I am divine," we're having an entirely different discussion. By requesting capitalized pronouns, the writer is also requesting their spiritual beliefs to be affirmed, which is implicitly (and apparently intentionally) forcing the other party to change their spiritual beliefs.

[–] Grail@aussie.zone -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Nonbinary isn't a gender. It's an umbrella term for about a billion genders. I have a gender identity, and it's goddess. I'd like you to stop saying My gender identity is invalid, please.

[–] DAMunzy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Good luck with that. I've come around on using whatever standard gender pronouns (he/she/they) but with what to me seems insulting (it) and capitalizing... I'll just still to using the proper noun.

It doesn’t matter what you think

You've already lost the battle if you think this way. You show disregard for what other people care for and then expect them to care about your thoughts? Walls instantly go up and no dialog will be had.

[–] Grail@aussie.zone -1 points 1 year ago

When we are talking about an issue where someone is potentially at risk of suicide, nothing else matters. There's nothing else in the pronoun debate that comes close to the weight of all the dead kids lost to suicide because they didn't feel accepted by our transphobic society. We need to make trans people feel accepted. Someone else thinking they're accepted isn't good enough, because that doesn't change the suicide risk. The only measure of whether trans people are actually accepted is what trans people think.