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Why critical support for Russia? (lemmygrad.ml)

submitted 2 days ago by RedPandaRedGuard@lemmygrad.ml to c/asklemmygrad@lemmygrad.ml

79 comments fedilink hide all child comments

I'm not sure how to write this without it sounding like ragebait or a fed post.

But why do most fellow Marxists critically support Russia today?

I can understand having seen Russia as a potential temporary ally or a necessary power that can stand against US / NATO hegemony over the globe. In short I can understand it from a strategic standpoint.

But what about morals of this?

To explain I've seen seen Russia as a necessary potential ally in the past too. But that has changed with the Ukraine war and concurrent events in Russia.

The way I see it, even with a CIA coup, a full scale invasion of a country still isn't justified. It's bordering on insanity in my mind to start such a war. The way the war and conscription is handled in Russia is also highly critiquable. The way people who fall from grace, also "fall out of windows" too.

The other major event that made me doubt Putin more was part of the leaks that happened with Navalny's death. Specifically the revelation of how Putin spend hundreds of millions not just on a palace like so many corrupt leaders and dictators do, but essentially what amounts to an own private town.

This is what lead me to believe that Putin devolved into insanity and paranoia from what he used to be, a calculated sensible dictator.

With all this in mind, why should we offer critical support to Russia instead of Ukraine?

Yes you can argue that Ukraine has been taken over via a pro-western coup regime, but they're still not the aggressors in the war.

I find it morally questionable to support an aggressor in such a clear scenario. And purely strategically speaking with how Russia is bogged down in Ukraine, I find their military capabilities not great either for any conflict with NATO.

Do any of you have any moral reasoning to critically support Russia? Or do you support it out of strategic reasons despite moral objections?

(page 2) 39 comments

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[–] vovchik_ilich@hexbear.net 29 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Oh boy this is gonna be a spicy comment section.

Essentially, the point is that Russia has no choice. The western empire has expanded eastwards and aims to control increasingly the former "Russian sphere of influence", which used to be the eastern block for the most part. The west can do this because it has the economic and geopolitical supremacy, and can do this through so-called"soft" power, political power and economic power.

This process progressively weakens the Russian empire in favour of the western empire. This leads to a stronger western empire over time, and this is something patently bad for the entire global south and all nations suffering under the yoke of western imperialism. Fighting against the western imperialism, even by means of military struggle, is considered positive by many socialists, even if done by a reactionary nationalist force. For example Mao famously allied with the Kuomintang during the Japanese invasion, because the priority was the elimination of imperialism, followed by the revolution. Edit: this is to me the epitome of critical support: having good analysis that lets you fight side by side with an anti-imperialist force, but after dealing with imperialism being able to fight the reactionaries and win.

Furthermore, history didn't begin in 2022. Tens of millions of Ukrainians have suffered the oppression of the west since 1990, becoming the poorest country in Europe and losing millions of lives to poverty, malnutrition, stress, unemployment, alcoholism and suicide since then. If you're concerned about the wellbeing of Ukrainians, you should primarily be concerned with the western role in the fucking up of the entire country over the past 35 years, which arguably affected it much greater than the ongoing invasion.

[–] Hestia@hexbear.net 22 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

NATO is violating a deal they arranged with russia to not expand their influence to countries in the Russian sphere of influence. Allowing Ukraine to become a part of the NATO poses a significant security risk for Russian sovereignty and National security. Even as things stand now, Ukraine was capable of briefly pushing into Russian lands and raising havoc. If they were a part of the NATO they would’ve been capable of doing much more damage. A country at war is not allowed to join the NATO, as it would force all the other countries in it into its mess.

The western world remains the enemy of Russia, even after the fall of the Soviet Union.

[–] bort@hexbear.net 9 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

I think you’re talking about ‘NATO’ when you say ‘UN’, probably worth an edit.

[–] Hestia@hexbear.net 12 points 1 day ago

I’m an eepy girl, alright?

[–] Hestia@hexbear.net 10 points 1 day ago

Edited.

[–] stink@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I think you mean NATO

[–] Hestia@hexbear.net 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Oh, yeah. Rip

[–] materialanalysis1938@lemmygrad.ml 26 points 2 days ago

I wouldn’t call myself a supporter of Russia or Putin. But any country that stands up to U.S./NATO imperialism should have support from Marxists. Ukraine a proxy for U.S. intervention in Eastern Europe. Their military is also full of Nazis who have been trying to exterminate ethnic Russians in the Eastern regions of the country.

[–] ButtBidet@hexbear.net 20 points 1 day ago (2 children)

This potentially could be a bad opinion for this place, I'm not sure. I've talked online with Russian communists in Russia and they were risking arrest to organise against conscription in their own country. My feeling (God I could be wrong) is that this a correct and noble thing for them to be doing as Russians in Russia.

All the anti Putin arguments made in the West just can the flames of imperialist war here. It seems like we're rehashing all the mistakes of the socdems during WW1 by rallying around our national bourgeoisie instead of calling for revolutionary defeatism.

[–] bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 1 day ago

Russian communist interest can be different than communists from elsewhere, i find it that russian communists are in a very tough spot at this moment because if a civil war in Russia were to happen at this point of time, its very likely that the West would pounce and completely carve Russia. The very nation is at stake here, kinda opposite to how it was at stake with their participation in WW1, the revolution was the only way to save the russian nation in 1917, but what about now?

[+] RedPandaRedGuard@lemmygrad.ml -15 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

That is specifically why I'm asking.

I see the majority of Marxists critically or sadly sometimes uncritically supporting Russia in this conflict.

That is something I do not agree with or understand on a moral level. And on a strategic level I do not see Russia as a reasonable or competent potential ally anymore after the recent years. I cannot support Russia without any arguments for it that I'm not aware of, without any cognitive dissonance.

[–] CommieTurtle@lemmy.ml 21 points 1 day ago

That is something I do not agree with or understand on a moral level.

Why are you bringing morality into this though? Putin is not a communist to my knowledge, so I doubt people are studying his every word to guide their praxis as if he was the second coming of Lenin.

Putin is an ally against Western imperialism and its unipolar world order. That should be THE single most pressing issue to focus on for any Marxist in my opinion.

And on a strategic level I do not see Russia as a reasonable or competent potential ally anymore after the recent years.

Why not? Isn't Russia literally fighting the West and supporting anti-west movements in the global south? You might be seeing this through a more static lense maybe? As in, thinking that just because he's an ally now, he's always going to be an ally. But that's not really a Marxist mindset. Things constantly change and evolve.

(I'm answering to "test" my knowledge on this as well. I promise I'm not attacking you, only the ideas, to see if what I write makes sense because I too am learning)

[–] amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 1 day ago

I don't have much time right now, but I know there have been previous threads on this with good answers. Here is some context on Ukraine and the nature of its administration:

https://lemmygrad.ml/post/7112898

https://ingaza.wordpress.com/2022/10/24/ukrainian-army-war-crimes-include-shelling-of-ambulences-firetrucks-and-rescue-workers-in-the-donbass-republics-similar-to-israelis-and-u-s-backed-terrorists-in-syria/

https://lemmygrad.ml/post/8044328

And a thing on debunking the idea of Russian "imperialism":

https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Imperialism#Russian_%22imperialism%22

[–] haui@lemmygrad.ml 17 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I'm reading about this a lot recently. Especially outside of western "free speech media" (read: propaganda outlets), the view is kinda different. Some people from donetsk were reporting their native russian language and ideology being forcefully repressed. I'm not saying that is what actually happened. It is what I heard from people claiming to be from there. Paired with accounts of ukraine being allegedly coup'd twice by the west and building up arms, allegedly to repress separatist movements and preparing to sell off most of the country to the west (something I read today but no idea if it is what happened).

So, in my humble opinion, there is no clear morality to this. Compared with videos of men in ukraine being kidnapped off the street and brought to the front to be detonated by a drone, russia isn't great either but I dont see the moral binarity that you seem to do.

[+] MagikalMarxist@lemmygrad.ml -14 points 1 day ago* (last edited 22 hours ago) (6 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 1 day ago

Russia is not imperialist: https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Imperialism#Russian_%22imperialism%22

Having some global influence and a capitalist model does not automatically mean you fit the definition of imperialism. You could try to argue current Russia might have the potential to become imperialist given the right circumstances, but short of them losing their sovereignty to the western empire and becoming a puppet state (and therefore only imperialist in the sense that they are part of the west's empire), that seems like a snowball's chance in hell. Russia is currently an important actor in a newly forming multipolar world, which is in direct contradiction to having monopolistic capitalist power. And it is "socialism with Chinese characteristics" China, with its fast-moving advances, increasing mutually-beneficial ties with other countries, and powerful forces of production and supply chains that is the dominant force in that multipolar push for sovereignty and self-determination, not Russia. So even if Russia were trying to do some kind of 5d chess maneuver to become a global imperialist power, they would have to go through China to do it, which is where some of their most significant support comes from.

There just simply aren't the conditions there, as far as I can tell, for Russia to independently develop into the kind of domineering power that the west has had, part of which was built on the tendrils of colonialism created over hundreds of years and then further developed on the advantageous technological and productive position that the US was in, in post WWII; and those US conditions were owed in part to it suffering so little damage to its own country while other places, like the USSR, suffered incredible losses. Russia is again suffering losses for fighting against the puppet/proxy state Ukraine and its neo-nazi and NATO-backed fascist elements, so that they don't get NATO knocking at their door, coming for them next. This is not some easy war that simply wins them territory and resources, and loses them little. You don't have to like Russia's leadership at all to recognize that this is a part of the ongoing existential fight for sovereignty against a brutally expansionist western empire. It was the west that invaded the USSR in its beginnings, it was the west that sought to destroy the USSR and successfully did so. It was the west that couped Ukraine. It was the west that sabotaged peace deals between Ukraine and Russia. The same west that has been doing constant wars, coups, economic sanctions, and other forms of waging war against the entire world for decades, killing millions, just in post-WWII. Not even counting the damage done via colonialism if you go back further. Any attempt to make equivalent Russia and the western empire is nothing short of the most high grade, top of the line BS, and most likely comes from western imperial sources who are trying to flip the script.

Critical support means what it sounds like. It means you support but with caveats, not that you give unthinking support. It means you recognize that the world is not a Marvel movie, but instead has complex contradictions and factional crossovers. That it is not made up of perfect victims and cartoon villains, but of varied peoples and cultures who don't all have the same interests, and you have to engage with and navigate that in order to develop toward global communism and a world free of imperialism. You can despise it all you want, but you still have to engage with the realities of it in all its messiness.

[–] BurgerPunk@hexbear.net 12 points 1 day ago

pigpoop

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