They’re not, this is the traditional polling version of liberal vs. conservative — the one that everyone who is not terminally online uses and can understand as it has been around for over a century.

[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago

It wouldn't make sense to ask people are you conservative or conservative, would it?

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They’re not, this is the traditional polling version of liberal vs. conservative — the one that everyone who is not terminally online uses

How do you describe the right wing ideology of liberalism in a not confusing way without rejecting liberalism=left as a definition?

[–] Telodzrum@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Easy, I use political science terms and traditional analysis instead of terminally online ones. The important thing to remember is that liberal vs. conservative is an ideological midpoint for the discourse being discussed and/or measured. You can apply this to any group or discourse — in the OP it’s being applied to the whole of a nation’s body politic. However, you can just as easily apply such a division to only self-described leftists — thus creating a conservative subgroup who still exist well to the left side of the entire population, but are to the right of the other ideological half of the spectrum of this subgroup.

There isn’t an objective midpoint in ideology that applies across political systems and time. Which is good, because the overall trend throughout history is leftward and a relative system is able to both capture that as well as provide descriptive value for a given measurement period.

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Easy, I use political science terms and traditional analysis

I literally use "liberal" to mean liberal capitalist because I read political economics books. When you say "political science" and "traditional analysis" you are referring to something that is a lot less universal than you think it is.

Also like how do you talk about liberalism and neoliberalism in a non confusing way while also claiming liberalism is left? You didn't answer my question you just took a swipe.

The important thing to remember is that liberal vs. conservative is an ideological midpoint for the discourse being discussed and/or measured

Except this is a very narrow overton window(more like an arrow slit) and if you limit your discussion to it you miss a lot of context and analysis.

Which is good, because the overall trend throughout history is leftward and a relative system is able to both capture that as well as provide descriptive value for a given measurement period.

This is kinda unfalsifiable

[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Also like how do you talk about liberalism and neoliberalism in a non confusing way while also claiming liberalism is left?

You make it clear with your audience that you're talking about the "liberal" in the economic sense and not "liberal" in the philosophical sense. From a philosophical perspective is the difference between being pro changes (liberal) vs being against changes (conservative), and as the person previously mentioned, in this sense you could say there are conservative communists (want to follow Marx's philosophy to the letter) and liberal communists (believe in the basic principles but feel some things need to be adjusted), just like there are liberal conservatives (believe in small/efficient State but individual freedoms) and conservative conservatives (social conservatives).

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You make it clear with your audience that you’re talking about the “liberal” in the economic sense and not “liberal” in the philosophical sense.

Liberalism as a philosophy is connected to the economic structure? Are you referring to a different philosophy and calling it liberal?

From a philosophical perspective is the difference between being pro changes (liberal) vs being against changes (conservative)

Okay, yes, you are. Liberalism is literally the status quo.

in this sense you could say there are conservative communists (want to follow Marx’s philosophy to the letter) and liberal communists (believe in the basic principles but feel some things need to be adjusted)

You literally can't be a marxist and take Marx as dogma. Marxism is a process based ideology.

[–] FriendBesto@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 week ago

You are right. But some people literally do take Marx's words as Dogma. I met a few IRL.