Memes

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[–] audrbox@beehaw.org 1 point 7 months ago (11 children)

I think you're on the right train of thought but missing a key aspect. I'm with MLs that without some sort of organized counter-authority, existing power structures will overrun the revolutionary forces. But that authority needs to be fully accountable to the people it serves, otherwise it will become disembodied and "institutionalized" in the more specific sense, leading to a power structure that justifies its own existence instead of deriving the justification through the people. MLs, to me, are missing this power analysis. They seem to try to argue that an authoritarian communist-party-run government has this accountability to the people by the fact that...they serve the people? That's not enough. You need to organize your revolution around accountability, around the idea that institutional power must always be justified by the will of the people and not the other way around. The Zapatistas understood this, which is why they built their governance around consensus-building and have since actively removed institutional power as it no longer served the people.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 7 months ago (4 children)

How much have you studied Marxist-Leninist democracy? Accountability is core to socialist countries, both in theory and practice.

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[–] audrbox@beehaw.org 0 points 7 months ago (3 children)

Please educate me about how authoritarian socialist countries ensure and maintain accountability to the people (or point me to where I can research myself)! I'd love to be wrong about this

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 7 months ago* (2 children)

The Zapatistas are an example of "authoritarian" socialism, as you already explained. Democracy in socialism comes in many different forms, usually involving a combination of local voting and consensus gathering.

For China, public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and the CPC, a working class party, dominates the state. At a democratic level, local elections are direct, while higher levels are elected by lower rungs. At the top, constant opinion gathering and polling occurs, gathering public opinion, driving gradual change. This system is better elaborated on in Professor Roland Boer's Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance.

For the USSR, it was quite similar. First-hand accounts from Statesian journalist Anna Louise Strong in her book This Soviet World describe soviet elections and factory councils in action. Statesian Pat Sloan even wrote Soviet Democracy to describe in detail the system the soviets had built for curious Statesians to read about.

These are just 2 examples, but it extends to other socialist countries like Nicaragua, Venezuela, Cuba, the DPRK, Vietnam, Laos, etc, which all have their own unique conditions and systems in place. All use their systems of democracy to keep the working classes on top, while exerting authority to suppress capitalists, sabateurs, fascists, etc.

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[–] audrbox@beehaw.org 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

Thank you! I will read these.

Side note, I think knowing that you put both the Zapatistas and the CPP in the same category of "authoritarian socialism" is helping me understand your perspective better. I think you're wrong, but I can at least understand where you're coming from, so thank you for that.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 7 months ago

All states are authoritarian, as all are instruments by which one class asserts its authority. That doesn't decouple it from democracy either, it's important to understand that working class states by necessity employ broad participation.

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[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 5 points 7 months ago (5 children)

What does this have to do with anything? None of this word salad even approaches the point we were talking about. The Zapatista movement is "authoritarian" just like every governing body that has been or is (who they serve is irrelevant to being or not being "authoritarian"). Authoritarian is a useless buzzword used mostly by liberals to smear movements and countries they don't like.

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[–] audrbox@beehaw.org 0 points 7 months ago (4 children)

Clearly we're not getting anywhere. Read some anarchist theory if you want to understand this "word salad" 💕

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[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 7 months ago (3 children)

I understand what you're saying it's just not relevant.

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[–] audrbox@beehaw.org 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

Challenging and limiting institutional power is not relevant to conversations about avoiding authoritarianism?

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[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 6 points 7 months ago

They enforce their authority on others, by force when necessary they are "authoritarian". Being accountable to their supporters in their areas doesn't change that. Until their is a global overthrow of class society by necessity their will be power structures where one class has authority and another doesn't. All governments/movements/classes that have been or are, are "authoritarian".

This renders authoritarian a useless term for analysis and as such has relegated it to being used to paint groups/movements/governments as evil or immoral should they stand outside liberal sensibilities.

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[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 3 points 7 months ago

If you wield force to protect your class interests (which is inevitable while there is a capitalist and a working class), then there is nothing that prevents the accusation of "authoritarian" against you, regardless of how "decentralized" you create your structures.

Not only will capitalists call you authoritarian for fighting to defend your interests, its extremely common for anarchists to accuse even other anarchist groups of being more "authoritarian" than their own. Its a meaningless term in a world with irreconcilable classes and class conflict.