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"China is AuThORItAriAN!" - Liberals (europe.pub)
submitted 6 months ago by to c/memes@lemmy.ml
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[–] 18 points 6 months ago (15 children)

You have to be a troll.

You can appose 2 things

Sure not what I took issue with. I took issue with you calling China fascist which is just an untrue statement.

Authoritarian is a pejorative. All countries and states in class society are "authoritarian" by necessity. Fascism is a specific thing arising from the tendency for the rate of profit to decline in capitalist society.

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  • [+] -14 points 6 months ago* (14 children)

    You can keep insisting I'm a troll if it helps you deal with not being able to engage with arguments.

    China is authoritarian, but authoritarianism doesn't matter to you, so that shouldn't matter to you. Consistency, please.

    And no, countries aren't "authoritarian" by necessity. Even if some amount of policies etc that would be considered such exist everywhere, you have countries that are freer and countries that have more political suppression, censorship of media outlets, etc etc.

    China does censor it's media—political and entertainment— heavily. Just one small example.

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  • [–] 18 points 6 months ago (13 children)

    How much Chinese media do you watch? How much time have you spent on Chinese social media? How fluent are you in Chinese? Or did you just get told this by other white people and decided to just go along with it because it confirms your biases.

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  • [+] -12 points 6 months ago* (12 children)

    https://www.equaldex.com/region/china

    Please take a look through this page that elaborates on the oppression of queer people under the Chinese regime before you make any more personal attacks or assumptions about me. Just as an example.

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  • [–] 16 points 6 months ago (11 children)

    Find a graph of these views over time, history is not a series of static snapshots. The PRC has been regularly improving with respect to queer rights and representation over time, showing no signs of stopping.

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  • [+] -11 points 6 months ago* (10 children)

    They're still banning TV shows/clips that feature queer stories or characters, there's been literal police raids where people have been asked to remove rainbow articles of clothing, rainbows are censored on TV. This is all very recent stuff within the past five years.

    Idk man, seems like they're desperate to erase our existence if you ask me.

    Even if it's not "as bad" as it once was, and if it "has potential", that's not where it is right now. Which is that it's an oppressive place for queer people right now, factually. Stop defending that.

    China isn't the perfect haven free from all criticism that some people make it out to be.

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  • [–] 17 points 6 months ago (9 children)

    I'm not defending repression, I'm pointing out that you're using queer identity as a club to beat a country that is steadily improving and showing no signs of slowing or stopping that growth. It's the same logic on your part that Zionists use to say queer advocates for Palestine are "defending homophobia." History and social progress exist as a progression of time, not as a static snapshot.

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  • [+] -8 points 6 months ago (8 children)

    If you're not defending repression, then please call it what it is: repression.

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  • [–] 15 points 6 months ago (7 children)

    I already have. Do you think history is a series of static snapshots, or something that moves over time?

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  • [+] -7 points 6 months ago* (6 children)
    [removed by mod]
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  • [–] 13 points 6 months ago (5 children)

    I'm queer myself, of course I find the present level of queer rights in China to be insufficient. This isn't something that exists outside of the context of its own historical progression, though, which is why your argument is the same as those who use Palestinian queer rights as a reason queer people shouldn't support Palestine.

    No, China is not perfect. It has real problems. What I am taking issue with is 2 of your major flaws:

    1. Inventing issues with China, like calling it "fascist," a "dictatorship," or saying there's "Uyghur genocide."

    2. Erasing real problems from their historical context and trajectories, making problems that are improving over time seem static and permanent.

    These point to your chauvanism and dogmatism.

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  • [+] -9 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    I'm not saying we shouldn't support China, I'm saying we should call it out for the BS that it does actually do, and not treat it like divinity beyond criticism. Every time I make any criticism of China, the responses are apologetic at best.

    Those issues aren't "invented", but I won't go over those points again.

    I didn't say it's permanent. It's common sense that everything is temporary. If you're reading that into my statements, that's on you.

    Re: chauvanism and dogmatism. What was that thing you said earlier? Phrasemongering? Sounds like. I'll add one: hypocrisy.

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  • [–] 12 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    I’m not saying we shouldn’t support China, I’m saying we should call it out for the BS that it does actually do, and not treat it like divinity beyond criticism. Every time I make any criticism of China, the responses are apologetic at best.

    Again, your criticisms are not constructive. They are either based on falsehoods, or are real problems analyzed metaphysically and thus unconstructive and incomplete criticisms.

    Those issues aren’t “invented”, but I won’t go over those points again.

    They are, and I proved why. Acting like I didn't take them down and that you just don't want to revisit them is not an accurate picture.

    I didn’t say it’s permanent. It’s common sense that everything is temporary. If you’re reading that into my statements, that’s on you.

    It's common sense, but at the same time metaphysics permeates liberal thought processes. That's why we have to insist on a dialectical approach, one that views everything as a process. Looking at queer rights, for example, they are uneven at a national level, with some areas being better than others, and largely this is tied to development. China is rapidly developing and rapidly improving. While it's true that in this moment queer rights are not satisfactory, it's not as though queer rights today anywhere can truly be seen as satisfactory, not even in Cuba, if judged by future standards. That's why it's important to identify what's rising and what's dying away, as the US for example is getting worse on queer rights as China is getting better.

    Re: chauvanism and dogmatism. What was that thing you said earlier? Phrasemongering? Sounds like. I’ll add one: hypocrisy.

    I mean both in your insistence on never believing a word a Chinese person says, and on your insistence to use metaphysics. I'm not hypocritical at all here, nor am I phrasemongering, nor dogmatic nor chauvanistic. I'm certainly insistent and confident though.

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  • [+] -8 points 6 months ago (1 child)
    [removed by mod]
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  • [–] 14 points 6 months ago

    Give me one example of a “metaphysical analysis” I made. One.

    Your insistence on ignoring China's historical progression in queer rights and instead focusing only on the present. You don't view progress as a process, but instead as a snapshot. It's like looking exclusively at one point on a graph instead of at the trend line.

    One point I will respond to is: again, I didn’t say they should be judged by future standards. There are places that are much better for queer people today compared to china. Today, not future.

    And these places will all be seen as horribly reactionary in the future, socially. That's why you need to look at progress as a process and not a snapshot.

    “My insistence on never believing a word a Chinese person says”.

    You mean that literal ONE guy on this thread? Yes, he didn’t have any compelling points. Next.

    No, I mean the mountains of sources I gave you from Chinese citizens explaining their system and why they support it. You deflected to Russia.

    Oh you are definitely being hypocritical, having an issue with “phrasemongering” and then proceeding to do it yourself.

    No, I am not. Please explain.

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