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[+] -18 points 1 week ago (13 children)
  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago (12 children)
  • [–] 19 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    Looking at actual translation at the first one, https://quran.com/al-baqarah/191

    "Kill them wherever you come upon them and drive them out of the places from which they have driven you out. For persecution is far worse than killing. And do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they attack you there. If they do so, then fight them—that is the reward of the disbelievers."

    If you read the verse before it, https://quran.com/al-baqarah/190, the Quran talks about it in the context of war.

    "Fight in the cause of Allah ˹only˺ against those who wage war against you, but do not exceed the limits. Allah does not like transgressors."

    The passage clearly says about defending, in the context war. And do it only against the aggressors. And also not to exceed the limits, which means proportionate response.

    It makes sense to fight back. Akin to the Ukrainian defending against Russian invasion.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    The passage clearly says about defending, in the context of war.

    Could this be interpreted as in any type of war, and not just a defensive war? It doesn't seem clear to me via the english translation.

    And also not to exceed the limits, which means proportionate response.

    Could this not also mean the limits interpreted through other passages elsewhere in the Scripture?

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 child)

    Person from Muslim background here. Let me try to explain. As with all sacred texts, Quran includes many contradicting parts, where other are open to interpretation. Also, Quran was "revealed" as small passages over Muhammad's life. He claimed to receive messages in the context of the current events. To complicate things even more, standard Quran is not compiled in chronological order.

    Passages from early Islam where Muslims were a persecuted minority, the texts are more about peace and harmony. As Muslims increased in numbers and influence, the passages have also turned more aggressive.

    For example 2:62 says

    Indeed, the believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabians—whoever ˹truly˺ believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good will have their reward with their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor will they grieve.

    The final ones are indeed about any war, and dominating the space they exist in. Give them ultimatum and then fight until they ask for mercy.

    The main message to take here is, by choosing which part to quote, you can make it say anything you want. Sounds familiar?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago

    As someone not from a Muslim background, thank you very much for the clarification and context!

    It irks me to no end regardless of the work, how many people will flaunt their supposed literacy and reasoning ability, but even the weakest "reelijun bad" meme will get circulated with little resistance.

    It poisons the well against constructive conversation. Thanks for educating. :)

    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    —Romans 1:22

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Could this be interpreted as in any type of war, and not just a defensive war? It doesn't seem clear to me via the english translation.

    2:190 says to fight only against those who wage war against you. So it sounds like defensive war to me.

    Could this not also mean the limits interpreted through other passages elsewhere in the Scripture?

    So I clicked on the tafsir of this verse by scholars more knowledgeable than me:

    "(but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.)

    This Ayah means, Fight for the sake of Allah and do not be transgressors,' such as, by committing prohibitions. Al-Hasan Al-Basri stated that transgression (indicated by the Ayah), "includes mutilating the dead, theft (from the captured goods), killing women, children and old people who do not participate in warfare, killing priests and residents of houses of worship, burning down trees and killing animals without real benefit." This is also the opinion of Ibn Abbas, Umar bin Abdul-`Aziz, Muqatil bin Hayyan and others. Muslim recorded in his Sahih that Buraydah narrated.

    ...

    (Fight for the sake of Allah and fight those who disbelieve in Allah. Fight, but do not steal (from the captured goods), commit treachery, mutilate (the dead), or kill a child, or those who reside in houses of worship.)

    It is reported in the Two Sahihs that Ibn `Umar said, "A woman was found dead during one of the Prophet's battles and the Prophet then forbade killing women and children. " There are many other Hadiths on this subject"

    So my bad, it's not talking about proportionate response. But it teaches the limits of how to conduct yourself during such war.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

    Tldr: Quran is interpreted with historic context. You can't apply defensive war verse to offensive war or daily life.

    Verses of quran were (according to Islam) told by God to prophet over his life-time on what to do in different events.

    For example Quraysh tribe just declared war on muslims? This verse comes out. They agreed a peace deal? Another verse. They continued raiding anyway despite the peace? A new verse, etc.

    Historians will publish research on which verse maps to what event and then Imams will use that to chose what to preach and when.

    "We got declared war? Do this. We have ceasefire? Do that. They are not followng the ceasefire? Now do these."

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  • [–] 6 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (4 children)

    I looked up 8:65 because it irked me, and it says: (Link)

    O Prophet! Motivate the believers to fight. If there are twenty steadfast among you, they will overcome two hundred. And if there are one hundred of you, they will overcome one thousand of the disbelievers, for they are a people who do not comprehend.

    The others are also similarily reduced - so i'd say these "translations" above are not accurate because they have been shortened as far as possible, but they capture the gist of it.

    Edit: 8:60 says for example:

    Prepare against them what you ˹believers˺ can of ˹military˺ power and cavalry to deter Allah’s enemies and your enemies as well as other enemies unknown to you but known to Allah. Whatever you spend in the cause of Allah will be paid to you in full and you will not be wronged.

    9:30 ff:

    The Jews say, “Ezra is the son of Allah,” while the Christians say, “The Messiah is the son of Allah.” Such are their baseless assertions, only parroting the words of earlier disbelievers. May Allah condemn them! How can they be deluded ˹from the truth˺?

    They have taken their rabbis and monks as well as the Messiah, son of Mary, as lords besides Allah, even though they were commanded to worship none but One God. There is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him. Glorified is He above what they associate ˹with Him˺!

    They wish to extinguish Allah’s light with their mouths, but Allah will only allow His light to be perfected, even to the dismay of the disbelievers.

    He is the One Who has sent His Messenger with ˹true˺ guidance and the religion of truth, making it prevail over all others, even to the dismay of the polytheists.

    Not exactly "perverts", that is not what this says, and this specific passage also does not mention fighting. But it's also not exactly a nice view of others, and other parts are very vocal about what to do with disbelievers.

    for example at 22:16 - 22:21

    Indeed, the believers, Jews, Sabians, Christians, Magi, and the polytheists—Allah will judge between them ˹all˺ on Judgment Day. Surely Allah is a Witness over all things.

    Do you not see that to Allah bow down ˹in submission˺ all those in the heavens and all those on the earth, as well as the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, and ˹all˺ living beings, as well as many humans, while many are deserving of punishment. And whoever Allah disgraces, none can honour. Surely Allah does what He wills.

    These are two opposing groups that disagree about their Lord: as for the disbelievers, garments of Fire will be cut out for them and boiling water will be poured over their heads,

    melting whatever is in their bellies, along with their skin.

    And awaiting them are maces of iron.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    That last bit sounds like the lake of fire in the Bible: a threat of posthumous torture rather than instructions for the living.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago* (1 child)

    It's for sure interpretable that way. That is the problem with all of this ancient scripture - we do not have enough context to really know what they meant.

    I was discussing this - of all places - under a Jućika comic a few weeks back. We don't even have enough common era knowledge to 100% make sure to understand comic strips from Hungary in the 60's after the Tankies arrived, how could we ever interpret something thousands of years old with a high degree of confidence?

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