Hopefully I’ve worded the question right.

I was once told (I could never verify if it was true) that a crocs company once almost went bankrupt after they made their crocs practically indestructible. Whilst the story was most likely bullshit, it makes me wonder: if a company can make a product that is practically indestructible, is it ethical for them not to make them indestructible, so people will buy more from them?

The way I look at it is, on one hand, I feel like they should make products to the highest quality if they can so that the consumer has to spend less money and that less is wasted, but at the same time if it leads to the company going bankrupt, what of the workers and their families? So I can’t decide, what do you think?

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[–] 48 points 1 week ago (33 children)

There are companies that went broke by making their product indestructible, a notable example being the maker of the wildly popular Instant Pot. They made a product that just didn't break. This is called planned obsolescence failure and has happened to other companies too.

That being said, making flimsy shit on purpose is shady at best.

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  • [–] 63 points 1 week ago (10 children)

    This is why capitalism is stupid at its core. It doesn't promote anything good. It only promotes greed and enriching the top. Make the shittiest product you possibly can that people will buy, buy out every other maker of product, repopulate the sector with fake brands to give people illusion of choice.

    Oldest trick in the book. And literally not 1 person I know can see through this trickery.

    In capitalism making a long lasting good product is not viable at all, it makes no sense. Who gives a shit if your great grandkid is still using your oven 60 years later, the shareholders dont benefit then. Out of business. Its an idiotic system kept alive only by propaganda.

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  • [–] 40 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    The real reason was private equity

    Private equity made things a lot worse. In 2019, Instant Brands was acquired by Cornell Capital and unceremoniously merged with Corelle Brands, a housewares company that includes Pyrex. An acquisition by a private equity firm brings certain expectations with it—namely: lots and lots of fast growth.

    https://www.bonappetit.com/story/instant-pot-bankrupt

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  • [–] 14 points 1 week ago

    Corelle/Pyrex is its own story of going from the best product to "good enough". Simple point, if you find yourself some old stuff of theirs, hang on to it because you can't find anything comparable anymore. Same can probably be true of other old brands of products. I found an old Whirlpool dryer that I won't ever let go of for the same reason. What will eventually fail on it I can either fix or buy a new, cheap part.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Right. Like I also hate capitalism as it exists today, but it is definitely possible to make a living making GOOD products. You just can't make billions doing it. Even if the product was LITERALLY indestructible, people will lose them, plus they're always making new people. It's just a lot slower than if you make a shit product people have to keep replacing

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    [–] 35 points 1 week ago (7 children)

    Think about all the waste that cheap products create. I can buy a cheap pair of work boots twice a year or a good pair every 2/3 years. I believe it's unethical for preying on the poor while also creating more waste.

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  • [–] 32 points 1 week ago* (4 children)

    The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. ... A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. ... But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

    This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socio-economic unfairness.

    Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms

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    [–] 31 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Every company does it. It even has a name.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

    No, it isn't ethical.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 week ago

    I think that's a slightly different thing, albeit with a similar outcome depending on intent.

    You can make "indestructible" versions of lots of things, but that doesn't mean they're remotely affordable or even desirable (due to weight or materials used).

    A company deliberately making something bad so it breaks is what you're describing, but a company making something lower quality so it's cheaper isn't necessarily the same.

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    [–] 21 points 1 week ago (7 children)

    Is it ethical for you as a consumer to buy low quality stuff that you know will break?

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    [–] 15 points 1 week ago (4 children)

    Companies are not people. They have no ethics. The only thing that keeps them in check is regulation and market forces.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Imagine you went to a football game and bought a serving fries. They come in a little clay-lined paper dish. The clay lining in that dish resists small amounts of oil for about 30 minutes, but after that time is up, the oil will penetrate through, soaking the dish and possibly staining your clothes.

    The manufacturer could've used a plastic lining instead. It's more resistant for much longer, and is still food-safe at reasonable temperatures. Is the choice of clay over plastic unethical? Or is it reasonable to pick a cheaper, more recyclable material with the assumption that it won't take most people a full 30 minutes to eat their fries?

    Different things have different purposes and need to meet different standards. "Breakable" vs "durable" isn't an objective measurement of quality.

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    [–] 10 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Welcome to end stage capitalism, where the only rule is line go up. Line go up when you use fewer materials. That's why everything is shitty now.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    It's worse than that. They use shitty materials deliberately even when they aren't cheaper to manufacture in order to make the product last less long so you have to re-buy a replacement sooner. It's called "planned obsolescence" and it's egregiously unethical.

    Samsung washing machines, for instance, use the "spider arm" (the bracket connecting the drum to the motor) as a sacrificial anode in order to ensure that the machine will break just out of warranty. Everything else in the machine will be stainless steel and still in pristine condition when the zinc spider arm has corroded to the point of literally cracking into pieces.

    (Yes, this happened to me, and I will never stop warning people away from Samsung because of it.)

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  • [–] 10 points 1 week ago

    Is it ethical to do something unethical?

    No

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  • [–] 9 points 1 week ago (13 children)

    If everyone built them at the highest quality, then every product would be at the highest price point.

    Each reduction in quality makes that product available to more people who couldn't afford it otherwise.

    Eventually, the only way to put the product in everybody's hands is to make it so cheap that it only works once, if you're lucky.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    lower quality products are not always cheaper to produce.

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  • [–] [S] 4 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Can you provide an example please?

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  • [–] 10 points 1 week ago*

    Samsung washing machines. Even if it's top-of-the-line they'll still sabotage it by using the spider arm as the sacrificial anode so that it breaks just out of warranty. Doesn't matter if you paid $2000 for it; it's still shit.

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  • [–] [S] 5 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    If everyone built them at the highest quality, then every product would be at the highest price point

    I’ll be honest, I didn’t even think of that point. Thanks for sharing, interesting perspective.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Not too long ago, TVs were so expensive that most people rented them.

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  • This might depend on where you live? I don't remember seeing any sort of rental TV services in any area I've lived in or any advertisements for such. I'll be honest, I wasn't looking for one, but I also haven't heard of this as a common thing.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago (4 children)

    The highest price points for many items are luxury brands that sell for hundreds to thousands of times the actual cost of manufacture.

    Eventually, the only way to put the product in everybody's hands is to make it so cheap that it only works once, if you're lucky.

    And yet everybody (or close enough) in the world today has a smartphone that generally will last at least a year or two. (Set aside countries that are screwed up because of their govt, that's another issue entirely). There are lots of things that could be supplied to every person on earth if capitalism wasn't fucked.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    no, of course it’s not. but ethics for the worker and consumer do not exist under capitalism. only for the shareholder.

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    [–] 7 points 1 week ago

    Just engineering something to be garbage for no other reason than so that people will buy more is unethical. That said, there are always trade offs and durability has to be weighed against other priorities.

    For example, cars used to have much bigger bumpers which were expected to protect against damage in low speed impacts. Those went away because the requirements changed, the low speed crash test was out, and fuel efficiency requirements were in.

    Or there's incandescent bulbs. They were ubiquitous for over a century, and yet they were constantly burning out and changing them was just a fact of life. Manufacturers could have easily made a more robust filament so the bulb would last longer, but doing so would have dramatically decreased the output of the bulb.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago

    Yes, particularly if you're the company creating the "In case of emergency, break glass" boxes.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    You should read about planned obsolescence.

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    I think it's okay to have different levels of quality at different price points so people can have options that fit their budget. A personal anecdote is measuring spoons. When I was young and just starting out, I just bought the cheapest set that would get the job done for a while. They were simply rounded plastic and the markings quickly started to wear off. Years later, when I was a bit more settled down, I decided to splurge on some nice stainless steel spoons in a rectangular shape that lets them fit inside spice jars better.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    It really depends on the product Id think. For an extreme example, a packaging company making packaging that does not degrade after a reasonable time contributes to landfill waste in a way that a packaging that eventually breaks down would be less responsible for.

    If a product's useful life is limited by some other fundamental reason to the thing simply breaking (I don't mean planned obsolescence here, but more objects only needs for a certain period of time and which customers are almost certain to throw out afterwards), then making the product last longer than needed just turns the extra material needed to get that robustness into extra waste.

    If we are talking planned obsolescence, that reasoning flips around to making longer lasting stuff cause less waste obviously, though nothing is truly needed for or able to last forever so there is always going to be a point where making the thing tougher is not going to help the end user any further.

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    [–] 4 points 1 week ago* (2 children)

    No. A good example is phones. They are intentionally designed to be breakable and difficult to repair. Even ignoring the repairabilty standpoint: the glass backs for wireless charging (a feature that a minority use), not giving consumers a phone case, the lack of innovation for "water proofing" the phone; just using glue everywhere (more annoying to recycle existing phones).

    That is unethical. The sheer amount of human life wasted needlessly spent repairing and paying to fix these phones, and polluting the environment is unethical. The default should be more repairable, if not more durable, but no.

    Companies are not people. They need people, sure. And it isnt automatically a good thing when they lose. But they are NOT people. 1000s of companies could crumble tommorow with no loss significant loss to anyone. They can find new jobs, create new companies. A company failing because they prioritised the consumer isn't "good", but it isnt "bad" either. However, if a company relies on the pollution of people's time, money, and environment? That is unethical.

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    [–] 4 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    I don't believe so.

    If every product was made with the highest standards of materials and craft, then all of the products would be more expensive. A competitive free market is meant to allow a wider variety of consumers access to products that suit their individual needs, and price is a huge part of those needs.

    I do think it's unethical to charge too much for products that aren't well made and that it's a failing of capitalism that it's not just allowed, but encouraged.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago

    The lie of free market is in the assumption of perfect knowledge. In order for the free market to work as intended (self regulate), the consumer is supposed to have the perfect knowledge of the product, its internal quality, all available alternatives and their respective prices. In reality, absolutely no consumer can possibly have the necessary breadth of knowledge about each and every product they buy and service they use, so the market winners are the ones with the best marketing and/or lowest prices.

    And that is why nothing seems to last anymore.

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