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[–] 19 points 1 day ago (5 children)

If the code is obvious crap, it doesn't matter if AI was involved. If the code is perfectly obviously fine, it doesn't (directly) matter if AI was involved.

In the grey area in between, if someone doesn't say AI was involved it might mean AI was used undisclosed to vibe code the result from beginning to end. If someone said AI was involved, it might mean AI was used solely to speed up testing to track down the cause of the bug. In the former case, you'll get nothing useful out of the submitter; in the latter case the submitter can engage usefully in pushback on their proposed flawed fix. In neither case did the AI disclosure (or lack thereof) actually help.

And that's more or less where this news comes from - the tool usage disclosure turned out to not be useful, partly due to the vagueness of the method of disclosure (a tag in the commit message), partly due to people not reliably following the requirement, so they decided to stop requiring it.

I'm not going to start using AI voluntarily any time soon, but I'm also not going to start panicking that the kernel is suddenly completely turned into vibe coded AI slop like so many crazy people seem to have been doing lately.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 day ago (4 children)

    honestly the code should be stood behind by the developer. then it won’t matter. and by stood behind, i mean responsible for the outcome as if they wrote it, able to explain exactly what the code does, how it does it. and have been reviewed before deployment. often times that takes longer then just coding it yourself

    you can’t use ai as a scape goat when the code does not work.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago*

    Exactly. While I do have issues with the ethical and environmental aspects of AI, I do believe that many of the criticisms are disingenuous. Some made me wonder if the one criticizing never worked in a real dev project and just parroting

    Bad developer have been copy pasting from stack overflow, writing slop, not following documentation/standards for years. This will never go away.

    AI can do amazing good stuff, keeping the exit criterias checked, act as a second opinion, verifying upstreams and helping building a good prototype. making harnesses, hell even find a forgotten RAII pointer or concurrency.

    But it can also lead to making gibberish that no one understands, mess up with productivity factor (if someone do code fast, why dont you??) and many other issue.

    I think its all about approaching how we can gatekeep the bad code, instead of trying to pin how it was made.

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  • [–] [S] 4 points 1 day ago (2 children)

    Exactly, that's the only rational way to look at it. The person submitting the code is responsible for it. Period. How they went about producing it is their own business, but they are the one who takes ownership of the result.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 day ago* (4 children)

    I don't mind people using AI tools to code for them. As long as they understand the code when they submit it and can fix it, if there are errors/faults in it before or after it has been merged.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 day ago

    That's a sensible stance and I don't disagree in principle, the problem is that I feel there are too few people that fall into that camp and a fair amount of them have had their brains absolutely cooked and believe they do, while they absolutely do not.

    Of course I don't have any real data to back those assumptions up, it's not the kind of thing you're going to get solid data on, mostly just observations. I'd like to think the Linux kernel devs are a cut above, but given the state of things my faith is in the gutter.

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    [–] 48 points 1 day ago (32 children)

    Linus going beastmmode

    "

    Linus Torvalds responded with an emphatic rejection of tool usage declarations.

    He wrote:

    What you are about is something entirely different. It has nothing to do with "expectations", and it has everything to do with your hangups.

    I don't understand this whole idiotic concept of "don't use AI for X".

    Here's a new rule just for you: don't use compilers for any of your kernel submissions.

    Because if you can't show that you really understand what the machine is actually doing by writing your code in assembler, then I don't want to see your code contribution. You clearly aren't competent if you can't write it that way.

    And btw, you had better not use an editor to write that commit message either.

    Because I need you to show me that you can actually write a good commit message without using tools that make it easy to backspace and hide the mistakes you made while typing.

    Ok?

    Because otherwise those tool-assisted commits of yours clearly aren't showing that you know what you are doing.

    Do you not see how UTTERLY STUPID those kinds of rules would be?

    So no. We're not going to make stupid rules that say "you can't use tools for X".

    The kind of expectations I have is that people do their best and I expect people to understand what they are doing.

    But that understanding has very little to do with what tools they use.

    And quite honestly, in my experience, the people I respect and call intelligent are not the ones that shy away from using new and interesting tools. ®

    "

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  • [–] 38 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (15 children)

    The open source software movement was very much founded on the idea of being concerned about what kinds of tools we use as a society. Software that's "just a tool" can lock you down and out of what you can do with it. Same argument can just as well be made that people were "shying away from using new and interesting tools" by running free software instead of Microsoft's new priority stuff that locks you in

    AI similarly gives massive control to a handful of companies. They have already used that leverage to intentionally sandbag tasks without telling you, when they think it's against their economic interests (model distillation and AI research). Is it not possible to imagine that goes further, they would use that leverage to slip in backdoor, not report classes of bugs, etc.?

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  • [–] 14 points 1 day ago (1 child)

    Torvalds has never been a Free Software guy. Open source is a convenience to him. Why should he allow blobs in the kernel otherwise? They do the job and arguably don't violate the GPL. That's all he's ever been concerned with.

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  • [–] [S] 16 points 1 day ago (8 children)

    Do explain how open models like Qwen that you can run locally give massive control to handful of companies. In fact, what seems obvious is that using and improving these models is precisely what takes control away from these companies. People who started the free software movement didn't cry like a bunch children about how much they hated software. They had the brains to understand the problem wasn't the software itself, but rather who controls it. So, they went out and built open versions of the software that weren't corporate owned. And try guess what tools they used initially to do that since open software didn't exist yet. Your mind is about to be blown.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 day ago* (7 children)

    Only a handful of companies make open weight models, and those models are not made for charity. They want either market share and/or control. Making your own model is not like making your own software because the capital cost are extraordinarily high. The masses will not have the billions in funds they would need need to train these models

    Unlike open source code, you cannot check what's actually in the open weight models. Worse still, you can hide things that trigger on very specific words (poison attacks can be intentional by the model maker or put by other actors in the public data). Fine tuning attempts are also no escape from hidden features you don't even know to look for

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  • [–] [S] 12 points 1 day ago* (6 children)

    The reason Chinese companies are making open models is very simple actually, and has fuck all to do with charity. LLMs are a form of a general commodity, and it's not a viable business model to monetize them directly. Trying to compete on model quality is a race to the bottom. Anything one lab can do, others can figure out a few months later. So, you have to keep investing more and more money just to keep ahead. Chinese companies realized this early, and that's why they release the model in the open, aiming for the high end of the value chain building customized services and integrations tha capture the market. My expectation is that LLMs will become like Linux where nobody really makes any money off the tech directly. But you'll see platforms like AWS built on top of it.

    Also, not sure what the rationale for companies releasing open models would be to trigger some unspecified poisoning in a coding model. Like what exactly is it gonna do when running locally?

    Meanwhile, you absolutely can inspect the weights and there are now plenty of tools for doing just that. It's an active area of research, but these things aren't black boxes people make them out to be.

    Finally, there are completely open models as well with training data, and source released in the open. None of them are frontier quality, but they are certainly a starting point.

    There also projects like petals for doing distributed training. There's absolutely no reason why you can't have something like SETI@home for training models on a network. This is what people should be putting their energy into instead of whinging endlessly, as if OpenAI or Anthropic give a flying fuck that some brave lib made yet another 'AI slop' comment on a niche social media platform.

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  • [–] 4 points 19 hours ago (1 child)

    I have given up trying to have this conversation, especially on Lemmy, but even in general. There is a mass hysteria surrounding anything even tangentiality related to AI. I think there must be something innately human that makes people 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' when it comes to change and the fear that comes with it.

    What I find more productive is to just leave the naysayers and doomers to there own devices. Most people just don't get it, and that's okay.

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  • [–] [S] 5 points 18 hours ago

    I generally agree, there is a lot of hysteria over this tech, and it will eventually burn itself out. I just find it really disappointing that people on the left refuse to engage in a rational fashion with what's happening, and what is to be done.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 day ago (2 children)

    Software that’s “just a tool” can lock you down and out of what you can do with it.

    AI is not “just a tool”. It is highly unethical.

    It harms the environment, it harms actual developers, it introduces all sorts of legal issues where copyright is only one of them, it locks you in to a vendor, it makes you dependent of giant tech companies that steal your data and want to monetize your work.

    Linus seems to ignore that or does not care about it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago

    It harms the environment, it harms actual developers, it introduces all sorts of legal issues where copyright is only one of them, it locks you in to a vendor, it makes you dependent of giant tech companies that steal your data and want to monetize your work.

    Could you elaborate on this a little? I came here as I'm not very knowledgable when it comes to AI and am genuinely curious. Sadly you're the only person I've seen so far that has made coherent (even if broad) arguments against AI.

    I know the environment argument is probably the enormous power demand of AI, and as far as the copyright thing goes, I've seen first hand how people abuse voice actors' livelihoods with shitty imitations of their voices that are also completely devoid of anything resembling skill. But how does AI harm developers, lock you in to a specific vendor or make you dependant on giant tech companies?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 day ago

    These risks are not different from before and still open source has the advantage of being open to anyone and any agent.

    Kernel modules written by US employees with unknown ties to US intelligence was just as much at risk for containing a backdoor as if written by an agent using an LLM with US intelligence ties.

    And in both cases intelligence actors or security researchers from around the world can review it all and try to spot backdoors. So can agents with different LLMs behind them.

    It would be an issue if there was only one state sanctioned LLM available, but as long as there is world wide competition in training LLMs, opensource will be “reviewed” with competing interests in “mind”.

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    [–] 7 points 1 day ago

    This was only keeping honest people honest.

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