This is a community for discussion, news, and memes pertaining to the video game sub-genre "soulslike".
Given Lemmy's size, the definition of soulslike may be treated relatively loosely. While games like the numerous FromSoft titles, the recent Star Wars Jedi games, Lies of P, Nioh and similar games should be the focus, games that incorporate soulslike elements - like Hollow Knight and Blasphemous, for example - may also be discussed here.
Basic Lemmy-quette applies. Additionally, since flairs don't exist yet, please do make sure to include a marker to denote what game your post is about in square brackets for clarity's sake. An example could be:
[BB] This enemy is so difficult!
or
[DS1] Anyone struggling with the gargoyles?
Friends:
Should you have any questions, please do let me know.
Genuinely the best game I’ve ever played haha. The difficulty claims are massively exaggerated btw. People just rushed to make a ton of essays about it like they do whenever a souls or souls inspired game drops.
At the very same time we now have people saying things like “well I never used cogflies, they make the game way too easy, nobody who wants to actually experience the fights would resort to that”
Remind you of anything? Lol
Nah, let's not act like Silksong isn't starting at 70% of HK endgame difficulty. It's not impossible hard like I Wanna Be The Guy, but it certainly starts harder than average. Funnily, in my opinion it kinda gets easier with play time, because you get more options and health, while they didn't make enemies do 3 damage. ... Or at least less then a handful of bosses.
HK led players through a more linear suggested path in the beginning imo which definitely gave most players a more gentle ramp into the difficulty, for sure.
But in that regard I think the early game of Silksong is actually a significantly better metroidvania than the original. Comparing the paths and unlocks between my friends, we did mostly totally different things in act one and had totally different experiences. People are currently praising HK’s gradual difficulty curve in comparison, but at the time the “early game drag” was actually a big criticism of the game.
I prefer Silksong’s curve simply because the devs trust me to auto-regulate. If I’m frustrated I can go look for upgrades and come back, or be stubborn and try the boss a hundred times if I’m in the mood. If I’m doing option 2 I know I can’t complain since I’m just doing it to myself.
The recurring pattern I see among people who exaggerate the difficulty is they refuse option 1 for their own reasons, but then speak about the game in objective terms as if they weren’t doing it to themselves. If that makes sense
I think a lot of players don't have experience with non linear games. That freedom of choosing where to go is something that some players need to be taught and I haven't really seen a good tutorial in that regard which doesn't just say: "hey, go wherever you want, you have multiple options!". Maybe Outer Wilds, but there they also specifically say: go where you want, doesn't matter.
And yeah, I liked Silksong and it's openness. But I would never recommend it to somebody who hasn't already played Hollow Knight. It really should be seen as post endgame DLC for HK in that regard.
And regarding your "bash your head against the Boss": the guard at the beginning of Hunters March was that for me. I was debating with myself if I go somewhere else, but then I got stubborn and wanted to get in NOW not after some upgrades. And I did it... After ... a few deaths.
At some point I think the multitude of paths themselves are a clear enough suggestion, but you’re right, that is a developed intuition from having experience with these games. I can definitely see strong arguments being made for Team Cherry to improve the onboarding.
I’m would also be curious to know how many players have run into this. I.e. having not played HK or other similar games and just not clicking easily with the style
If you do get past that fight early, you get assistance in the gauntlet fight a little ways past it.
I did not get past that fight early, and so did not get that assistance. The gauntlet ended up taking me about 10 hours (over multiple days of trying). I did get much better at the diagonal pogo though as a result though...
Oh, didn't know that was why a certain somebody helped. It was awesome and I was glad when I saw them joining. I sadly missed the later opportunity to have training fight against them.
I don't know what the exact trigger condition is, but it didn't happen in my playthrough. I watched a streamer play that part after I was well past it expecting to see them suffer like I did and was really surprised!
I mean...duh? It's a Hollow Knight sequel that Team Cherry spent an absurd amount of time crafting for Hollow Knight sickos. Especially since it started as DLC for HK, I've always seen it as a giant Soulsbourne DLC like Shadow of the Erdtree. So far, it seems like it fits that description perfectly.
I think the whole engagement driven economy was a mistake. People write hyper slop to get paid.
I don't know silksong but there sure was a lot of elden ring discourse that was like "this game is soooo hard! No, I won't use spirit ashes or a shield or phantom".
It's the same story every time, lol
I still haven't beaten it because I've been really busy, but I'm thoroughly enjoying it. It's exactly as I imagined.
I think we really need to start having immediately available lists of what other games a person has played/beaten before they can write a review of any game. Like, if all you've played is call of duty and then write a review saying dark souls sucks, I'm not going to care as much as if you dislike sekiro after playing bloodborne.
Ha, well the funny thing I noticed is that in that wave of early negative reviews from people rage quitting, tons of people actually do list their “qualifications”, to try and get ahead of the predictable “just git gud” crowd. It’s become a recurring joke now among my friends.
“I’ve platinumed every dark souls, ninja gaiden, getting over it, and even all those impossible games from the NES era, so you can believe ME when I say this game is way too hard. I am SO DONE with this. Not recommended” type of things
But if you go and look at the steam reviews with playtime, almost everybody who left negative reviews around the 5-10 hr mark ended up playing over 40-50 hours lol. I think these people mostly were just binging the game in way too long of chunks because the game is so amazing (like 5+ hours at a go), then getting too fatigued to play properly, then crashing out
It's such a beautiful game, aesthetically. When you're fighting well, too, you become part of something sublime.
I already paid my dues with hard games in the NES era. I'm too old for that shit now.
Exactly.
I couldn't tell off game developers back then.
But now I can't tell the developer of Silk Song off, because I would end up unloading all the anger from The Lion King and Ecco the Dolphin on them, and that's not fair.
Fortunately, it's easy to find out what games are hard as balls now and just leave them to the people that enjoy it. Back in the day you played what you managed to get and liked it, even if it sucked!
It's true. A few redeemed themselves - some only thanks to Game Genie or a solid developer cheat code. Ecco the Dolphin was pretty fun with infinite lives.
Some I think I only learned to like through a kind of "my allowance is gone" Stockholm syndrome.
One game that always stands out in my mind is Victory Road on the NES. I was living in Germany at the time, so getting a game, any game, for my American NES was a big deal. My cousin in the States offered to mail a game he didn't want any more to me, so I of course accepted. For weeks I anticipated getting it, and when it finally arrived...it sucked. I see why he didn't want it any more. Still played and beat it!
The Lion King
You just unearthed a long-buried trauma for me. I hope you're happy...
I also paid my dues in the NES era but i’d like my brain to not be mush when i’m old so i’ll continue to play harder games to stretch my brain muscles. Just like exercising, if you don’t use it, you lose it.
Twitch reflexes aren't the only way you use your brain to play games.
Yeah NES games weren't exactly brainy as opposed to "make this series of button mashes go into your muscle memory".
I'll pass.
Enemies deal more damage and you also heal more efficiently.
Enemies are faster and you get more movement abilities.
You can even heal in mid-air, for Git Gud's sake.
The only complaint I have is the length of some runbacks to the bossfights and those are usually explained by me not exploring enough and missing a checkpoint.
I just finally got the checkpoint after a rough runback. I don't know if you're past this yet, but there is a windy place with a technical climb, followed by a new zone with some technical jumps, and then when you finally find the bench, it costs rosaries, which I didn't have the first time... Lol
I had to go farm up some rosaries and then do it all over again.
Oh, I've 100%'d the game so I know what area you mean. That was certainly an interesting climb
The game had two people do the QA and less than 10 gameplay testers. Over a period of 7 years those less than two handful of people testing the game got incredibly good at it.
There is a difference between difficulty and actively being mean to players. The two environmental damage and some of the run backs are incredibly rude. Especially the bloodborne style grinding for shard bits.
I say this as someone who 100%ed the game. I definitely think they cranked it up a bit too much and catered to the pantheon of hollownest crowd instead of making the game overall balanced.
I predict more patches to smooth out some of those rough development edges.
Exactly! I bought it but the damn game is simply too hard. It's not fun to struggle like that over and over. I uninstalled it.
Easy mode is an accessibility issue. Failing to have difficulty options just means you have less people who can play/ enjoy your game. I'm with James Stephanie Sterling on this one. Git gudders can sit down
1000%. You don't have to use other difficulty options if you don't want to, but I'd rather have them and not need them than the other way around. "Artistic vision" my ass
I don't entirely disagree, but also you don't have to play it. They didn't make the game to make money, they made the game they wanted to, they didn't compromise. Maybe a better version of the game with an easy mode is possible but it isn't the game they wanted to make.
I don't think I'm amazing at it but I like the difficulty forcing me to try different strategies and actually learning the fights because I'm not good enough otherwise. I think rather than 'git gud' I'd say 'just play a game you enjoy'.
What if you enjoy the game in general but taking double damage makes it, for whatever reason, impossible to progress? Maybe you don't have the reflexes or the spacial awareness to find a good spot to heal in fights or you just want a more relaxed experience etc. Why gate people from playing the game behind such artifical barriers if they enjoy the game but can't deal with the difficulty? Git gud is just a cop out and an excuse not to put thought into making a game as accessible as possible to the audience playing the game.
I'm not asking for the devs to make it a completely different game or genre but just be mindful of how artificial the roadblock is if the most basic enemies of the starting areas deal double damage and present a huge hurdle to so many people. Not even touching upon basically any boss
Those 'blocks' are intentional, just go do something else and come back. I do not believe you have gotten to a point where there is literally nothing left to do but get past a basic enemy and you are physically incapable of doing so. If you don't have the reflexes or spacial awareness to even learn when to heal then I suspect you won't enjoy the game. If you want a relaxed experience then play a relaxed game.
Also if you read my comment, I literally didn't say 'git gud'. The devs don't owe anyone the most accessible game ever made, they didn't want to make it, so they didn't. It doesn't have to be perfect, it's okay for you to not play it.
I failed to beat hollow knight. I am not going to start silk song. It's too bad, it looks like an amazing game, but I am 40 and I can't spare the time or the frustration.
I think it has difficulty settings. I remember seeing a screenshot with many options. I don't play the game but maybe there's a saving grace.
This is not correct. Silk song and its predecesor both don't have any difficulty options or accessibility options that alter gameplay.
If you'd reaaally want to, you could mod the game to make it easier.
Yeah, I started it. Switched to the first game after reaching the 2nd boss. The first one is much easier, actually playable. But then Hades 2 came out, so I forgot all about Hollow Knight.
Definitely play Hollow Knight first! It is the tutorial that Silksong is missing. And also to understand the story.
It feels like a true sequel. So many sequels start you back at square one tutorial assuming you never played the first game. This seems to assume you did. If you didn't beat Hollow Knight you probably are not ready for Silksong.
It would be easier to play piano if it just had notes from one key. Easier still if it only had one note, like a triangle.
It's honestly thoughtless how Beethoven left out us casual piano players when writing his music. How am I supposed to play these without spending a lot of time with them?
Beethoven..? Hollow Knight is Beethoven.
Silksong? Silksong is Bach.
Toccata and Fugue in Diagonal pogo by Hornet S Bach
I finally beat Act 2 this past weekend. Honestly not sure if I am physically capable of beating Act 3 if they're going to ramp up the difficulty even more... Haven't given up yet though!
There's a 3rd act?? Oh man.
Yep. The game has an Act 3. You can get to an ending in Act 2 but like the original HK, it's not the final ending.
it’s different the hollow knight, but the differences cancel each other out. i don’t notice the difference.
It was the perfect difficulty for me, though they should probably have added a setting or something. Difficult enough to create a feeling of being "in the zone", doable enough to not get frustrated. It's like they designed it for me specifically