ToastedPlanet

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No, now the US is a white nationalist, christo-fascist, techno-fedualist dictatorship. The US doesn't stand for anything. The US is now a tool for the wealthy to enrich themselves at our expense in a capacity we haven't seen since monopolies were busted.

This “freedom and justice for all” thing was always a myth.

This argument is ahistorical. The US extended rights to people of color and women.

the MAGA shitstains are the true American patriots

The fascists are still fascists. All they do is hate. They don't love this country. The nation state is only ever a vehicle to terrorize, subjugate, and kill people.

This "freedom and justice for all is a myth" argument is the same as every other "America was never a democracy" argument. This argument is made by people who do not value freedom and justice for all or democracy. America's failings are a justification to destroy the country that has personally wronged them. They feel they've been morally tainted by association with the US and their only recourse is to burn a country of 340 million people to the ground to somehow redeem themselves. Not even to make something better and in some cases instead the goal is to end up in a red fascist dictatorship.

Nothing is good enough for them, no amount of social progress matters. Like in this case where, as usual, the argument pretends social movements didn't happen. People make these arguments because they've personally been made to feel morally uncomfortable. So everyone can die as far as they care.

Don't let people get away with this. The fascists took our democracy and freedoms away. The people who pretend those weren't real don't want us to have them either.

This user's argument is more of the same accelerationism that was rampant before, during, and after the 2024 election. Accelerationism benefits the fascists and thus is not anti-fascism. Part of the way we fight back against fascists is telling the truth. edit: typo

Mamdani is a socialist like myself. He's using the Democrat party because it's the most useful tool available to him. But he's not a neoliberal Democrat.

I'm a registered independent. I'm not this neoliberal you've concocted to debate with. I know Mamdani's got a lock on the Mayoral race as the Democratic nominee. And I don't gatekeep who is in the Democratic Party.

Lol, your argument is to refuse to vote for anyone who isn't as far left as Mamdani. You're not arguing to think globally or act locally. You're larping on the internet.

What if I told you that any genuinely Left Irish Republicanism, even from the Irish Diaspora, requires calling for a Free Palestine? We have arrived at that same human collective conclusion while allowing for Pride in our own identity to participate in cementing that.

But you'll argue against voting for candidates who aren't fascists in future election. Even if that means the fascists will continue to genocide the people you pretend to care about. No thanks.

I'm going to keep arguing against accelerationism.

This idea that we should only support democratic socialists like Mamdani and Bernie is ridiculous and is definitively accelerationist.

Accelerationist ideas need to be challenged and refuted wherever they show up.

I support Mamdani. I'm going to vote for the furthest left, viable candidates that I can. In most cases, in the short term, that's going to be neoliberals. Hopefully all the candidates will be socialist eventually.

Your argument is fully committed to owning this neoliberal that you've invented. I don't care about what other people think about me. I'm way to close to the chopping block to care. So I definitely don't care about your views on this other person you're pretending to have an argument with.

But you're argument is an excellent example of how to be politically ineffective so I'll keep dismantling it. People need to out grow this mindset of preserving their personal moral purity in order to be politically effective. Instead they'll need to learn how to analyze what strategies are the most useful.

Nah, your argument is that you're a cool edge lord who rejects any association with other people if it means risking your purity.

The whole point of rejecting a national identity is to form a broader human identity. But instead of that people seem to take leftism as another kind of American libertarian individualism were the goal is to reject being apart of anything bigger than yourself.

Believing in shared ideals like freedom and justice for all means rejecting a state when it abandons those ideals.

A neoliberal Israeli online newspaper is of course going to spin the neoliberal Democrat in a positive light. So what?

It doesn't change the fact that Kamala Harris was the right choice in 2024. Or that your argument is based on talking points from a Russian bot farm.

The way we defeat fascism is by rallying around shared ideas and ideals. And not by being an island of one.

You read the comment incorrectly. MAGAts are christo-fascist nationalists of course.

There are more positions we need to vote for then just the one Mamdani ran for. Only voting for people who meet your personal purity test isn't a useful strategy.

Harris refusing to rebuke Biden? Was a critical misstep. As was allowing the party to carry on influencing Republican primaries for the same “centrist” appeal. Picking up Megan McCain and Dick fucking war criminal Cheney endorsements and refusing to alienate them was not the way to retain the Left or Youth.

Obviously. There can be more than one lesson to learn from an election.

90% of your agrument is addressed to an imaginary neoliberal. All so you can larp about being so pure for only being willing to support one guy. We need more than the mayor of the New York to defeat fascism.

I will only vote for people who offer actual material policy gains like Zohran Mamdani does, Democrat or otherwise.

That’s how it starts, but it ends in the same hell. Once you decide your country stands for something, you inevitably stop seeing how it has failed at doing that thing for centuries.

This is a non-sequitur. There's nothing stopping someone from seeing what a country stands for and how it has failed to live up to those ideals. People can in fact walk and talk.

...So when people talk about freedom and equality as a U.S. value, when they talk about the melting point, they have to pretend the slaves don’t exist.

No one has to ignore our history or pretend the prison industrial complex doesn't exist to understand that we stood for equality. In fact, it's the other way around. It's the people who ignore and even rewrite our history who fail to understand America is a melting pot.

Another way of looking at it is, “You might say your country stands for this ideal, but when we find massive examples of it failing, then you’re arguing with reality. You might wish your country stood for it, but it doesn’t, at least not now. Quit lying to yourself.”

Except there are massive examples of it succeeding. The US ended slavery and gave voting rights to women. So it is your argument arguing with reality.

When we lose sight of the fact our country stood for something we end up in a nationalist christo-fascist dictatorship. Championing freedom and justice for all is how we stave off the division employed by fascists.

Pretending the US didn't stand for anything is an agreement with the fascists. They believe America has always been a white christian nation state and now it is one. Your argument is agreeing with their lie. The only way to defeat the fascists is to believe in the truth.

Patriotism is great because patriotism is about loving what a country stands for.

America no longer stands for freedom and justice for all. But anyone who loved those ideas before can still stand for them now.