▲ 732 ▼ Shoulda listened (europe.pub) submitted 1 week ago by cm0002@lemy.lol to c/programmer_humor@programming.dev 135 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[–] afk_strats@lemmy.world 119 points 1 week ago* (22 children) So glad to see that Python finally made it big in 2022 permalink fedilink source hideshow 22 child comments replies: [–] Endmaker@ani.social 60 points 1 week ago It's thanks to Django and Flask paving the way in 2003 and 2010 respectively. permalink fedilink source parent [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 22 points 1 week ago (20 children) Python was an even bigger mess in 2022 than it was in 2010. The version control hellscape intensifies with the more things there are to have version incompatibilities with. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 20 child comments replies: [–] im_fine_sandy@nord.pub 7 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (19 children) I have lots of experience with node and a little with python. Python seems great for working with large data sets and I really like jupyter notebooks. The available libraries are really great. However, the thought of installing a Python CLI app makes me twitchy. I suspect that node has all the same problems and that I'm used to working around them, but all the Python environment stuff is a nightmare. Edit: dear python dweebs: I don't care. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] esc@piefed.social 16 points 1 week ago (4 children) Yeah, absolute nightmare of writing pipx install programname. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] _stranger_@lemmy.world 6 points 1 week ago (3 children) iykyk permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 4 points 1 week ago (2 children) Just stand up a VM to do it in, so you don't corrupt anything else you made in python that you also want to run on the same box, amirite? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] alsimoneau@lemmy.ca 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) A venv isn't a vm permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 0 points 1 week ago A venv is still a container to setup, configure, more environment to manange. My preference is for an app that runs without all that, something I can build, link and distribute as a single executable file which runs when it runs and doesn't leave a pile of (usually highly disorganized) infrastructure to untangle when we're done with it. Yes, of course a venv done well helps with that - except when they're done by the average piker. permalink fedilink source parent [–] nil@piefed.ca 11 points 1 week ago uv is a fantastic tool if you didn't know permalink fedilink source parent [–] grue@lemmy.world 8 points 1 week ago (6 children) Python environment/packaging sucks, but at least the language itself doesn't. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] esc@piefed.social 7 points 1 week ago (4 children) It's fine actually, all of the problemswith python packaging and env are overblown to insane degree. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 8 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) I used to work at a place that used Jython (which never got updated to Python 3, BTW) and was responsible for trying to keep that shit working even as various libraries started dropping Python 2 support. I still get a thousand-yard stare when I think about it. (Still worth it vs. writing actual Java code, though.) permalink fedilink source parent [–] im_fine_sandy@nord.pub 8 points 1 week ago (2 children) yeah everyone elses experience is invalid. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] esc@piefed.social 5 points 1 week ago* Yep, they are. Just recently there was an article here, where a person claimed that recommended python tooling is inadequate because they needes to read two paragraphs of documentation. Endemic problem really. permalink fedilink source parent [–] SlurpingPus@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago Npm/yarn are absolute horseshit. See? Node is just as bad as Python now. permalink fedilink source parent [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 6 points 1 week ago I learned basic programming in BASIC in the 80s. Back then when you needed more speed, you grafted in assembly calls, and the speed difference was dramatic. Straight Python feels as slow as BASIC - it's got nifty speedy library calls to stuff written in other languages, but if you need something that's not available in a library, now you're writing a library function for Python, in another language, and why not just write the whole thing in that other language and ditch the heavy toolchain? permalink fedilink source parent [–] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 1 week ago Python is great for standalone scripts/CLIs with standard system dependencies. For actual apps you want venvs, probably managed by uv these days. I've written 1000s of python CLIs/scripts over the years, typically wrapping APIs for otherwise shitty enterprise and SaaS software (also many one-off scripts for ETL). Nowadays, AI writes these scripts in a fraction of the time (and reads the shitty API docs / otherwise figures it out) and my CLI toolkit is better than ever (with $0 ongoing cost). Calling MCPs from CLIs is also interesting, as some vendors never had usable APIs before now. permalink fedilink source parent [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 3 points 1 week ago (4 children) The available libraries are the ONLY excuse for Python. When you need tools more sophisticated (and labor intense) than your tool to make your tool functional, it's time to re-examine your choice of toolchain. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] GeirGrusom@lemmy.world 1 point 1 week ago (3 children) Yeah, Python as a language is a mess IMO. We used it for making a electrical simulator and the language is...bad. The variable scoping, lack of explicit variable declaration, backwards comprehension syntax, the VERY CONFUSING object orientation design, that classes aren't serializable by default, package story and deployment... It really has very little going for it, and combine all that with the awful performance characteristics it's just...no. Today I'm "Rust if it fits, if not Rust then C#". We re-wrote the simulator in C# and performance was 70x better and the code got shorter, the deployment was hell of a lot easier since we went AOT and it just builds a native binary for the target platform. No virtual environment crap. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Aatube@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 week ago* (2 children) Python is very opinionated. I like it (other than the stupid ternary operator) but I can very much see why others don't. (At the same time I will fight for it. It's like the GNOME of programming languages.) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 2 points 1 week ago I will fight for it. It’s like the GNOME of programming languages. For some reason this brings the image of dwarf tossing to mind... permalink fedilink source parent [–] GeirGrusom@lemmy.world 1 point 1 week ago Yeah, the fact that so much of the language is conventions as well doesn't help. The type hinting is fairly poor as well, but then again type hinting is basically admitting that dynamic typing is a mistake (which it is). permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Endmaker@ani.social 60 points 1 week ago It's thanks to Django and Flask paving the way in 2003 and 2010 respectively. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] MangoCats@feddit.it 22 points 1 week ago (20 children) Python was an even bigger mess in 2022 than it was in 2010. The version control hellscape intensifies with the more things there are to have version incompatibilities with. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 20 child comments replies: [–] im_fine_sandy@nord.pub 7 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (19 children) I have lots of experience with node and a little with python. Python seems great for working with large data sets and I really like jupyter notebooks. The available libraries are really great. However, the thought of installing a Python CLI app makes me twitchy. I suspect that node has all the same problems and that I'm used to working around them, but all the Python environment stuff is a nightmare. Edit: dear python dweebs: I don't care. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] esc@piefed.social 16 points 1 week ago (4 children) Yeah, absolute nightmare of writing pipx install programname. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] _stranger_@lemmy.world 6 points 1 week ago (3 children) iykyk permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 4 points 1 week ago (2 children) Just stand up a VM to do it in, so you don't corrupt anything else you made in python that you also want to run on the same box, amirite? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] alsimoneau@lemmy.ca 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) A venv isn't a vm permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 0 points 1 week ago A venv is still a container to setup, configure, more environment to manange. My preference is for an app that runs without all that, something I can build, link and distribute as a single executable file which runs when it runs and doesn't leave a pile of (usually highly disorganized) infrastructure to untangle when we're done with it. Yes, of course a venv done well helps with that - except when they're done by the average piker. permalink fedilink source parent [–] nil@piefed.ca 11 points 1 week ago uv is a fantastic tool if you didn't know permalink fedilink source parent [–] grue@lemmy.world 8 points 1 week ago (6 children) Python environment/packaging sucks, but at least the language itself doesn't. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] esc@piefed.social 7 points 1 week ago (4 children) It's fine actually, all of the problemswith python packaging and env are overblown to insane degree. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 8 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) I used to work at a place that used Jython (which never got updated to Python 3, BTW) and was responsible for trying to keep that shit working even as various libraries started dropping Python 2 support. I still get a thousand-yard stare when I think about it. (Still worth it vs. writing actual Java code, though.) permalink fedilink source parent [–] im_fine_sandy@nord.pub 8 points 1 week ago (2 children) yeah everyone elses experience is invalid. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] esc@piefed.social 5 points 1 week ago* Yep, they are. Just recently there was an article here, where a person claimed that recommended python tooling is inadequate because they needes to read two paragraphs of documentation. Endemic problem really. permalink fedilink source parent [–] SlurpingPus@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago Npm/yarn are absolute horseshit. See? Node is just as bad as Python now. permalink fedilink source parent [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 6 points 1 week ago I learned basic programming in BASIC in the 80s. Back then when you needed more speed, you grafted in assembly calls, and the speed difference was dramatic. Straight Python feels as slow as BASIC - it's got nifty speedy library calls to stuff written in other languages, but if you need something that's not available in a library, now you're writing a library function for Python, in another language, and why not just write the whole thing in that other language and ditch the heavy toolchain? permalink fedilink source parent [–] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 1 week ago Python is great for standalone scripts/CLIs with standard system dependencies. For actual apps you want venvs, probably managed by uv these days. I've written 1000s of python CLIs/scripts over the years, typically wrapping APIs for otherwise shitty enterprise and SaaS software (also many one-off scripts for ETL). Nowadays, AI writes these scripts in a fraction of the time (and reads the shitty API docs / otherwise figures it out) and my CLI toolkit is better than ever (with $0 ongoing cost). Calling MCPs from CLIs is also interesting, as some vendors never had usable APIs before now. permalink fedilink source parent [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 3 points 1 week ago (4 children) The available libraries are the ONLY excuse for Python. When you need tools more sophisticated (and labor intense) than your tool to make your tool functional, it's time to re-examine your choice of toolchain. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] GeirGrusom@lemmy.world 1 point 1 week ago (3 children) Yeah, Python as a language is a mess IMO. We used it for making a electrical simulator and the language is...bad. The variable scoping, lack of explicit variable declaration, backwards comprehension syntax, the VERY CONFUSING object orientation design, that classes aren't serializable by default, package story and deployment... It really has very little going for it, and combine all that with the awful performance characteristics it's just...no. Today I'm "Rust if it fits, if not Rust then C#". We re-wrote the simulator in C# and performance was 70x better and the code got shorter, the deployment was hell of a lot easier since we went AOT and it just builds a native binary for the target platform. No virtual environment crap. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Aatube@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 week ago* (2 children) Python is very opinionated. I like it (other than the stupid ternary operator) but I can very much see why others don't. (At the same time I will fight for it. It's like the GNOME of programming languages.) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 2 points 1 week ago I will fight for it. It’s like the GNOME of programming languages. For some reason this brings the image of dwarf tossing to mind... permalink fedilink source parent [–] GeirGrusom@lemmy.world 1 point 1 week ago Yeah, the fact that so much of the language is conventions as well doesn't help. The type hinting is fairly poor as well, but then again type hinting is basically admitting that dynamic typing is a mistake (which it is). permalink fedilink source parent
[–] im_fine_sandy@nord.pub 7 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (19 children) I have lots of experience with node and a little with python. Python seems great for working with large data sets and I really like jupyter notebooks. The available libraries are really great. However, the thought of installing a Python CLI app makes me twitchy. I suspect that node has all the same problems and that I'm used to working around them, but all the Python environment stuff is a nightmare. Edit: dear python dweebs: I don't care. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] esc@piefed.social 16 points 1 week ago (4 children) Yeah, absolute nightmare of writing pipx install programname. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] _stranger_@lemmy.world 6 points 1 week ago (3 children) iykyk permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 4 points 1 week ago (2 children) Just stand up a VM to do it in, so you don't corrupt anything else you made in python that you also want to run on the same box, amirite? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] alsimoneau@lemmy.ca 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) A venv isn't a vm permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 0 points 1 week ago A venv is still a container to setup, configure, more environment to manange. My preference is for an app that runs without all that, something I can build, link and distribute as a single executable file which runs when it runs and doesn't leave a pile of (usually highly disorganized) infrastructure to untangle when we're done with it. Yes, of course a venv done well helps with that - except when they're done by the average piker. permalink fedilink source parent [–] nil@piefed.ca 11 points 1 week ago uv is a fantastic tool if you didn't know permalink fedilink source parent [–] grue@lemmy.world 8 points 1 week ago (6 children) Python environment/packaging sucks, but at least the language itself doesn't. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] esc@piefed.social 7 points 1 week ago (4 children) It's fine actually, all of the problemswith python packaging and env are overblown to insane degree. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 8 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) I used to work at a place that used Jython (which never got updated to Python 3, BTW) and was responsible for trying to keep that shit working even as various libraries started dropping Python 2 support. I still get a thousand-yard stare when I think about it. (Still worth it vs. writing actual Java code, though.) permalink fedilink source parent [–] im_fine_sandy@nord.pub 8 points 1 week ago (2 children) yeah everyone elses experience is invalid. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] esc@piefed.social 5 points 1 week ago* Yep, they are. Just recently there was an article here, where a person claimed that recommended python tooling is inadequate because they needes to read two paragraphs of documentation. Endemic problem really. permalink fedilink source parent [–] SlurpingPus@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago Npm/yarn are absolute horseshit. See? Node is just as bad as Python now. permalink fedilink source parent [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 6 points 1 week ago I learned basic programming in BASIC in the 80s. Back then when you needed more speed, you grafted in assembly calls, and the speed difference was dramatic. Straight Python feels as slow as BASIC - it's got nifty speedy library calls to stuff written in other languages, but if you need something that's not available in a library, now you're writing a library function for Python, in another language, and why not just write the whole thing in that other language and ditch the heavy toolchain? permalink fedilink source parent [–] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 1 week ago Python is great for standalone scripts/CLIs with standard system dependencies. For actual apps you want venvs, probably managed by uv these days. I've written 1000s of python CLIs/scripts over the years, typically wrapping APIs for otherwise shitty enterprise and SaaS software (also many one-off scripts for ETL). Nowadays, AI writes these scripts in a fraction of the time (and reads the shitty API docs / otherwise figures it out) and my CLI toolkit is better than ever (with $0 ongoing cost). Calling MCPs from CLIs is also interesting, as some vendors never had usable APIs before now. permalink fedilink source parent [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 3 points 1 week ago (4 children) The available libraries are the ONLY excuse for Python. When you need tools more sophisticated (and labor intense) than your tool to make your tool functional, it's time to re-examine your choice of toolchain. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] GeirGrusom@lemmy.world 1 point 1 week ago (3 children) Yeah, Python as a language is a mess IMO. We used it for making a electrical simulator and the language is...bad. The variable scoping, lack of explicit variable declaration, backwards comprehension syntax, the VERY CONFUSING object orientation design, that classes aren't serializable by default, package story and deployment... It really has very little going for it, and combine all that with the awful performance characteristics it's just...no. Today I'm "Rust if it fits, if not Rust then C#". We re-wrote the simulator in C# and performance was 70x better and the code got shorter, the deployment was hell of a lot easier since we went AOT and it just builds a native binary for the target platform. No virtual environment crap. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Aatube@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 week ago* (2 children) Python is very opinionated. I like it (other than the stupid ternary operator) but I can very much see why others don't. (At the same time I will fight for it. It's like the GNOME of programming languages.) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 2 points 1 week ago I will fight for it. It’s like the GNOME of programming languages. For some reason this brings the image of dwarf tossing to mind... permalink fedilink source parent [–] GeirGrusom@lemmy.world 1 point 1 week ago Yeah, the fact that so much of the language is conventions as well doesn't help. The type hinting is fairly poor as well, but then again type hinting is basically admitting that dynamic typing is a mistake (which it is). permalink fedilink source parent
[–] esc@piefed.social 16 points 1 week ago (4 children) Yeah, absolute nightmare of writing pipx install programname. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] _stranger_@lemmy.world 6 points 1 week ago (3 children) iykyk permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 4 points 1 week ago (2 children) Just stand up a VM to do it in, so you don't corrupt anything else you made in python that you also want to run on the same box, amirite? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] alsimoneau@lemmy.ca 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) A venv isn't a vm permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 0 points 1 week ago A venv is still a container to setup, configure, more environment to manange. My preference is for an app that runs without all that, something I can build, link and distribute as a single executable file which runs when it runs and doesn't leave a pile of (usually highly disorganized) infrastructure to untangle when we're done with it. Yes, of course a venv done well helps with that - except when they're done by the average piker. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] _stranger_@lemmy.world 6 points 1 week ago (3 children) iykyk permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 4 points 1 week ago (2 children) Just stand up a VM to do it in, so you don't corrupt anything else you made in python that you also want to run on the same box, amirite? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] alsimoneau@lemmy.ca 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) A venv isn't a vm permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 0 points 1 week ago A venv is still a container to setup, configure, more environment to manange. My preference is for an app that runs without all that, something I can build, link and distribute as a single executable file which runs when it runs and doesn't leave a pile of (usually highly disorganized) infrastructure to untangle when we're done with it. Yes, of course a venv done well helps with that - except when they're done by the average piker. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] MangoCats@feddit.it 4 points 1 week ago (2 children) Just stand up a VM to do it in, so you don't corrupt anything else you made in python that you also want to run on the same box, amirite? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] alsimoneau@lemmy.ca 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) A venv isn't a vm permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 0 points 1 week ago A venv is still a container to setup, configure, more environment to manange. My preference is for an app that runs without all that, something I can build, link and distribute as a single executable file which runs when it runs and doesn't leave a pile of (usually highly disorganized) infrastructure to untangle when we're done with it. Yes, of course a venv done well helps with that - except when they're done by the average piker. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] alsimoneau@lemmy.ca 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) A venv isn't a vm permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 0 points 1 week ago A venv is still a container to setup, configure, more environment to manange. My preference is for an app that runs without all that, something I can build, link and distribute as a single executable file which runs when it runs and doesn't leave a pile of (usually highly disorganized) infrastructure to untangle when we're done with it. Yes, of course a venv done well helps with that - except when they're done by the average piker. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] MangoCats@feddit.it 0 points 1 week ago A venv is still a container to setup, configure, more environment to manange. My preference is for an app that runs without all that, something I can build, link and distribute as a single executable file which runs when it runs and doesn't leave a pile of (usually highly disorganized) infrastructure to untangle when we're done with it. Yes, of course a venv done well helps with that - except when they're done by the average piker. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] nil@piefed.ca 11 points 1 week ago uv is a fantastic tool if you didn't know permalink fedilink source parent
[–] grue@lemmy.world 8 points 1 week ago (6 children) Python environment/packaging sucks, but at least the language itself doesn't. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] esc@piefed.social 7 points 1 week ago (4 children) It's fine actually, all of the problemswith python packaging and env are overblown to insane degree. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 8 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) I used to work at a place that used Jython (which never got updated to Python 3, BTW) and was responsible for trying to keep that shit working even as various libraries started dropping Python 2 support. I still get a thousand-yard stare when I think about it. (Still worth it vs. writing actual Java code, though.) permalink fedilink source parent [–] im_fine_sandy@nord.pub 8 points 1 week ago (2 children) yeah everyone elses experience is invalid. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] esc@piefed.social 5 points 1 week ago* Yep, they are. Just recently there was an article here, where a person claimed that recommended python tooling is inadequate because they needes to read two paragraphs of documentation. Endemic problem really. permalink fedilink source parent [–] SlurpingPus@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago Npm/yarn are absolute horseshit. See? Node is just as bad as Python now. permalink fedilink source parent [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 6 points 1 week ago I learned basic programming in BASIC in the 80s. Back then when you needed more speed, you grafted in assembly calls, and the speed difference was dramatic. Straight Python feels as slow as BASIC - it's got nifty speedy library calls to stuff written in other languages, but if you need something that's not available in a library, now you're writing a library function for Python, in another language, and why not just write the whole thing in that other language and ditch the heavy toolchain? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] esc@piefed.social 7 points 1 week ago (4 children) It's fine actually, all of the problemswith python packaging and env are overblown to insane degree. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 8 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) I used to work at a place that used Jython (which never got updated to Python 3, BTW) and was responsible for trying to keep that shit working even as various libraries started dropping Python 2 support. I still get a thousand-yard stare when I think about it. (Still worth it vs. writing actual Java code, though.) permalink fedilink source parent [–] im_fine_sandy@nord.pub 8 points 1 week ago (2 children) yeah everyone elses experience is invalid. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] esc@piefed.social 5 points 1 week ago* Yep, they are. Just recently there was an article here, where a person claimed that recommended python tooling is inadequate because they needes to read two paragraphs of documentation. Endemic problem really. permalink fedilink source parent [–] SlurpingPus@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago Npm/yarn are absolute horseshit. See? Node is just as bad as Python now. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] grue@lemmy.world 8 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) I used to work at a place that used Jython (which never got updated to Python 3, BTW) and was responsible for trying to keep that shit working even as various libraries started dropping Python 2 support. I still get a thousand-yard stare when I think about it. (Still worth it vs. writing actual Java code, though.) permalink fedilink source parent
[–] im_fine_sandy@nord.pub 8 points 1 week ago (2 children) yeah everyone elses experience is invalid. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] esc@piefed.social 5 points 1 week ago* Yep, they are. Just recently there was an article here, where a person claimed that recommended python tooling is inadequate because they needes to read two paragraphs of documentation. Endemic problem really. permalink fedilink source parent [–] SlurpingPus@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago Npm/yarn are absolute horseshit. See? Node is just as bad as Python now. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] esc@piefed.social 5 points 1 week ago* Yep, they are. Just recently there was an article here, where a person claimed that recommended python tooling is inadequate because they needes to read two paragraphs of documentation. Endemic problem really. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] SlurpingPus@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago Npm/yarn are absolute horseshit. See? Node is just as bad as Python now. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] MangoCats@feddit.it 6 points 1 week ago I learned basic programming in BASIC in the 80s. Back then when you needed more speed, you grafted in assembly calls, and the speed difference was dramatic. Straight Python feels as slow as BASIC - it's got nifty speedy library calls to stuff written in other languages, but if you need something that's not available in a library, now you're writing a library function for Python, in another language, and why not just write the whole thing in that other language and ditch the heavy toolchain? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 1 week ago Python is great for standalone scripts/CLIs with standard system dependencies. For actual apps you want venvs, probably managed by uv these days. I've written 1000s of python CLIs/scripts over the years, typically wrapping APIs for otherwise shitty enterprise and SaaS software (also many one-off scripts for ETL). Nowadays, AI writes these scripts in a fraction of the time (and reads the shitty API docs / otherwise figures it out) and my CLI toolkit is better than ever (with $0 ongoing cost). Calling MCPs from CLIs is also interesting, as some vendors never had usable APIs before now. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] MangoCats@feddit.it 3 points 1 week ago (4 children) The available libraries are the ONLY excuse for Python. When you need tools more sophisticated (and labor intense) than your tool to make your tool functional, it's time to re-examine your choice of toolchain. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] GeirGrusom@lemmy.world 1 point 1 week ago (3 children) Yeah, Python as a language is a mess IMO. We used it for making a electrical simulator and the language is...bad. The variable scoping, lack of explicit variable declaration, backwards comprehension syntax, the VERY CONFUSING object orientation design, that classes aren't serializable by default, package story and deployment... It really has very little going for it, and combine all that with the awful performance characteristics it's just...no. Today I'm "Rust if it fits, if not Rust then C#". We re-wrote the simulator in C# and performance was 70x better and the code got shorter, the deployment was hell of a lot easier since we went AOT and it just builds a native binary for the target platform. No virtual environment crap. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Aatube@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 week ago* (2 children) Python is very opinionated. I like it (other than the stupid ternary operator) but I can very much see why others don't. (At the same time I will fight for it. It's like the GNOME of programming languages.) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 2 points 1 week ago I will fight for it. It’s like the GNOME of programming languages. For some reason this brings the image of dwarf tossing to mind... permalink fedilink source parent [–] GeirGrusom@lemmy.world 1 point 1 week ago Yeah, the fact that so much of the language is conventions as well doesn't help. The type hinting is fairly poor as well, but then again type hinting is basically admitting that dynamic typing is a mistake (which it is). permalink fedilink source parent
[–] GeirGrusom@lemmy.world 1 point 1 week ago (3 children) Yeah, Python as a language is a mess IMO. We used it for making a electrical simulator and the language is...bad. The variable scoping, lack of explicit variable declaration, backwards comprehension syntax, the VERY CONFUSING object orientation design, that classes aren't serializable by default, package story and deployment... It really has very little going for it, and combine all that with the awful performance characteristics it's just...no. Today I'm "Rust if it fits, if not Rust then C#". We re-wrote the simulator in C# and performance was 70x better and the code got shorter, the deployment was hell of a lot easier since we went AOT and it just builds a native binary for the target platform. No virtual environment crap. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Aatube@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 week ago* (2 children) Python is very opinionated. I like it (other than the stupid ternary operator) but I can very much see why others don't. (At the same time I will fight for it. It's like the GNOME of programming languages.) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 2 points 1 week ago I will fight for it. It’s like the GNOME of programming languages. For some reason this brings the image of dwarf tossing to mind... permalink fedilink source parent [–] GeirGrusom@lemmy.world 1 point 1 week ago Yeah, the fact that so much of the language is conventions as well doesn't help. The type hinting is fairly poor as well, but then again type hinting is basically admitting that dynamic typing is a mistake (which it is). permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Aatube@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 week ago* (2 children) Python is very opinionated. I like it (other than the stupid ternary operator) but I can very much see why others don't. (At the same time I will fight for it. It's like the GNOME of programming languages.) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] MangoCats@feddit.it 2 points 1 week ago I will fight for it. It’s like the GNOME of programming languages. For some reason this brings the image of dwarf tossing to mind... permalink fedilink source parent [–] GeirGrusom@lemmy.world 1 point 1 week ago Yeah, the fact that so much of the language is conventions as well doesn't help. The type hinting is fairly poor as well, but then again type hinting is basically admitting that dynamic typing is a mistake (which it is). permalink fedilink source parent
[–] MangoCats@feddit.it 2 points 1 week ago I will fight for it. It’s like the GNOME of programming languages. For some reason this brings the image of dwarf tossing to mind... permalink fedilink source parent
[–] GeirGrusom@lemmy.world 1 point 1 week ago Yeah, the fact that so much of the language is conventions as well doesn't help. The type hinting is fairly poor as well, but then again type hinting is basically admitting that dynamic typing is a mistake (which it is). permalink fedilink source parent