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‘Here is where hope lies’: Palestinians and Israelis mourn losses in joint ceremony (www.972mag.com)
submitted 6 months ago by to c/world@lemmy.world
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In a secret location due to right-wing attacks in previous years, bereaved families recognized each other's grief and called for a shared future.

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[–] [S] 0 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

I'm not going to enter into a discussion about the righteousness or the feasibility or political usefuless of this or that solution as my opinion on the matter ultimately doesn't matter.

I will only point to this key phrase of what you wrote:

The existence of collaborators and propagandized Palestinians who aren’t well read on their own history (as a product of the ongoing colonization) doesn’t mean the “jury is out on the debate”, they aren’t part of the debate.

Because this what it boils down to, right? Palestinians are not a monolith, even if you, a Palestinian, cast out of the story some (a few?) other Palestinians as irrelevant to recreate a kind of monolith that you can call "a very mature body of literature" (and whoever is outside that is "not part of the debate", i.e., outside the monolith).

And here's the thing. You can do that. I can't. You have a "we" to refer to. I don't. I only have a "you" (the plural you, vous, εσεις). So, I don't have the standing to take this step and label Palestinians who don't share your political vision as "collaborators" and "propagandized" even if yours is the majority opinion. Small example: the Barghouthis are calling for releasing Marwan Barghouthi as a step to revive the two state solution. Am I to start going around like an asshole calling Marwan fucking Barghouthi a propagandized collaborator? You can, without being an asshole. I can't. Same with the people whose event the other commenter called a joke. You can call them a joke. The other commenter can't.

So, I am also not going to start going around like a western asshole shitting on people on the ground who risk their safety, going against the genocidal Israeli right on a project of shared grief like this. In the exact same way that I don't go around blanketly condemning groups that take on armed struggle to exercise the Palestian people's legal right to armed resistance to occupation under international law.

And for the same reason, I'm going to call the other commenter out, just like I would (and have) call out someone for blanketly denouncing Palestinian armed resistance.

Yet you feel compelled as an outsider to speak with such authority and conviction.

I don't claim authority. I do claim the conviction of my own ideas and a measure of consistency in their application.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (1 child)

    Are Trump supporters part of the intellectual debate on democracy?

    No, we're not a monolith, but not everyone can contribute intellectually. Yes, Fateh and Mahmoud Abbas are widely seen as collaborators, and have been for a long time now, but especially what they've done to oppress Palestinians since the Gaza genocide started.

    I think Marwan Bargouti has potential to unite people, and if anything radicalizes you to not collaborate with Israel it's Israeli prison. And he has spoken more recently in support of a one state solution so I think he has potential, but the narrative that he's our Mandela is a romantic myth; imagine if Mandela fought for a black only ghettos as a state within South Africa instead of pushing for economic sanctions against the apartheid government.

    That said, his children arguing for his release using the two state solution rhetoric doesn't have as much weight as you're implying it does.

    So, I am also not going to start going around like a western asshole shitting on people on the ground who risk their safety, going against the genocidal Israeli right on a project of shared grief like this. In the exact same way that I don't go around blanketly condemning groups that take on armed struggle to exercise the Palestian people's legal right to armed resistance to occupation under international law.

    False equivalence.

    And for the same reason, I'm going to call the other commenter out, just like I would (and have) call out someone for blanketly denouncing Palestinian armed resistance.

    Stick to the latter. "this kind of attitude is ridiculous and disconnected from the reality of Palestinians" this is you engaging in an argument on behalf of Palestinians and their reality, and you should expect to be called out in the same manner as the user you called out, who expressed an opposing Palestinian viewpoint.

    Why do you feel entitled to express a Palestinian viewpoint but they aren't? Have a measure of consistency in applying your criticism.

    to recreate a kind of monolith that you can call "a very mature body of literature" (and whoever is outside that is "not part of the debate", i.e., outside the monolith).

    I didn't exclude them from the intellectual argument and literature, they are absent from it.

    Not every Palestinian wants Marwan released, and not for the reason you might think, some view him as a violent murderer who stands in the way of peace, believe it or not a lot of Palestinians oppose armed resistance, which you rightfully said shouldn't be condemned.

    I hope I'm not being repetitive and I hope I'm getting my point across. We're not a monolith, but not every opinion deserves to be entertained respectfully by the simple merit of coming from a Palestinian's mouth. I'll bring up Trump supporters as an analog, a lot of them genuinely believe they are supporting the best future for their country and people (we'll ignore the truly racist and just want others to suffer portion for now), does their view that Trump is protecting democracy and freedom need to be amplified and given equal weight because Americans are not a monolith?

    It's a stretchy analogy, I know, we live in Idiocracy now, but you understand what I'm saying?

    I think you mean well, but I think you consume too much liberal Zionist propaganda, which is really convincing if you don't interrogate it strongly.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 6 months ago

    “this kind of attitude is ridiculous and disconnected from the reality of Palestinians” this is you engaging in an argument on behalf of Palestinians and their reality

    Got me. You're right. I concede the point.

    What I should have said is "they feel they're doing the right thing within their reality we from the outside we should not judge them".

    For most of the other points, I'm not sure I have anything to add, it's becoming belaboured at this point.

    On the Trump analogy I think you're wrong. On two counts.

    First: For the sake of argument only I'm going to call the Palestinians engaging with what you call liberal Zionists "defeatists". I'm not saying i see them as such but let's use this word to caricature them. So: defeatists are nowhere near the same thing as collaborationists. Even if we agree that Abbas is acting as the long arm of Netanyahu, that's not the same as the defeatists who see a human connection in grief and want to chant kumbaya with Israelis who oppose the genocide and the apartheid. That's nowhere near the same. It's a world of difference between active collaboration with a genocidal apartheid regime and the hosting of common events with people who also oppose that regime. Just like Palestinians are not a monolith, so aren't Israelis.

    Second: Yes, Trumpists get a say on a discussion about democracy. I'm not American, so I'll extrapolate to my own contexts. Yes, far right nationalists, stupid as they are, are my co-citizens. So long as they're not trying to do a coup, yes, they do belong in a discussion about democracy. I can't flick my magic wand and make millions of right wingers disappear, so finding a way to have a discussion about the rules of the democratic game is absolutely important. I'm not saying anyone should be conceding any arguments to them. I do believe in the cordon sanitaire approach, and more crucially I believe in populist policies to "drain the swamp" on which the fascists feed. But you can't mute and block your way out of proto-fascism.

    Anyway, thanks for introducing me to Ghassan Kanafani, I didn't know, holy shit.

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