submitted 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) by to c/leftymemes@lemmy.dbzer0.com
 

Maybe if people with your ideology only make things that harm you it's an opportunity to reflect.

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[–] 159 points 2 months ago (74 children)

Nothing wrong with communists. I feel so radicalized by capitalism I'm almost there anyway.

It's the Russian/China apologists that are annoying.

Russia is bad, Chia.na is bad, and the U.S. is bad. All those things can be true. But all the insufferable posts about how great China and Russia are, and all the bad things you have heard about them m are just Western propaganda...

If they were serious about their ideology, then why do they care so much about someone thinks about China or Russia.

If they didn't brigade those issues so much, straight up ban people, just because they disagree, or hlrefuse to have any real discussion that doesn't center on just shutting other people down, then maybe people outside their group might take them more seriously.

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  • [–] 73 points 2 months ago (8 children)

    Anarcho communists welcome you. We hate all nation states equally. Unfortunately there aren't enough of us to brigade anything.

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  • [–] 26 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    For anyone who wishes to know more Now And After: The ABC of Communist Anarchism was written to explain anarcho-communism in plain, easily understood, language.

    It begins by explaining the current capitalist system (now) and then goes on to explain anarchism (after).

    It is available to read or download in multiple formats, for free, here: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/alexander-berkman-what-is-communist-anarchism#toc2

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    This isn't terrible, but it's important to be aware that the class analysis and definition of capitalism in this is nonsense. The capitalist class is not just "rich people" and the working class is not just "poor people." Capitalism is not defined by...whatever this attempts to define it by. Capital is the power to prioritize the allocation of resources and labor.

    Capitalism stands for the idea that the purpose of all value, surplus and base really, of production is to increase the capital of the holders of capital. That is it. It is the worship of allocative power solely for the sake of allocative power. And that's why it inevitably degenerates into fascism--the worship of power solely for the sake of power.

    All class dynamics must oriented themselves within the structure of that allocative power analysis. The capitalist class is not "rich" people, or at least not definitionally, and the working class is not poor people. The capitalist class are those who derive increase to their allocative power primarily from the direction of capital under the capitalist system. On the flip side, working class is anyone who increases their own allocative power primarily through the application of their own labor. The vague vibes based class analysis in this would effectively place servers (like, at a restaurant) as bourgeoisie capitalist-class/adjacent just like doctors, lawyers, programmers, and the like. I think it's clear why that maybe feels like complete bullshit to most peeps.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago* (2 children)

    Did you read a different book?...

    He's very much aware of what capitalism is and clearly doesn't just believe it to be "rich people". What nonsense.

    But it is not only the worker and the farmer who are exploited and forced to give up the greater part of their product to the capitalists, to those who have monopolized the land, the railroads, the factories, the machinery, and all natural resources. The entire country, the whole world is made to pay tribute to the kings of finance and industry.

    The small business man depends on the wholesaler; the wholesaler on the manufacturer; the manufacturer on the trust magnates of his industry; and all of them on the money lords and banks for their credit. The big bankers and financiers can put any man out of business by just withdrawing their credit from him. They do so whenever they want to squeeze any one out of business. The business man is entirely at their mercy. If he does not play the game as they want it, to suit their interests, then they simply drive him out of the game.

    Thus the whole of mankind is dependent upon and enslaved by just a handful of men who have monopolized almost the entire wealth of the world, but who have themselves never created anything.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    He literally says the bourgeoisie, namely doctors, lawyers, and the like, are, in their interests, aligned with the capitalist class if not altogether a part of it. And even the parts you quote are hard to parse as they are both focused on the outputs of production rather than the allocative power leading to production but also touch upon the problem of how our overly financialized economies obfuscate the allocative power issue. At the same time, when he says shit like "the business man is entirely at [the big bankers financiers] mercy" it makes me think we are not on the same page here, unless his definition of business man is not the investor class--absolutely capitalist class--business man I use.

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  • [–] 42 points 2 months ago* (11 children)

    here’s the neat part: anyone who unironically thinks china or russia are communist is a dumbass and can be ignored or is trolling.

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  • [–] [S] 45 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    China and russia being communist is an American right wing talking point.

    No leftists consider the russian federation communist, and not even the cpc considers china communist. They claim to be attempting to realise communism by first developing socialism to the point that they can.

    Whether you believe them or not aside, you're sort of showing your ignorance. Even the scary tankies on hexbear and ml or whatever don't think they're communist. That's why the term actually existing socialism (aes) is aes and not aec.

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  • [–] 18 points 2 months ago

    i made no indication i believed them or them to be communist. i was speaking of how trollish those who claim china/russia is communist are. they’re almost always “libertarians” or some form of boomer.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Nobody thinks Russia is even socialist anymore, this is an absurd strawman. Marxist-Leninists believe China to be socialist and run by a communist party, because public ownership is the principal aspect of the PRC's economy and the working classes control the state.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    yes but: “communist party” does not mean “achieved communism.” we all know that. they are working toward a goal, a goal I agree with, but we all know they are still caps. for the time being.

    i would not refer to china as communist.

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  • [–] 35 points 2 months ago (8 children)

    Some of us are just tired of western people not wanting to get a little nuance about none western countries. And the instance you admit that ofcourse no place is perfect you get hit with. "See x is bad, communism can't work in reality." It is tiresome and eventually I end up defaulting to standard answers or blocking people if they are rude.

    On top of that I do think it is amazing how for instance India, China and Vietnam has improved the lives of billions, but every single time it hit western news it is followed by "but at what price".

    And finally I have realized that things are not always as they seem and the propaganda machine makes it hard to discern the reality of many things. This goes for everything. I have no clue if it actually is dangerous to go USA or it just seem that way.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    I have no clue if it actually is dangerous to go USA or it just seem that way.

    USian here. It's not dangerous as long as you're not even vaguely latino.

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  • [–] [S] 12 points 2 months ago* (5 children)

    It kinda is though. You have to worry about scammers/pickpockets/hustlers/gangs in a couple or spots (although they mostly stick to murdering each other).

    Plus basal violence is extremely high. Like even by intentional homicides it's in the top third https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

    There's a lot of the world without a "bad part of town"

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago

    The US is indeed very dangerous. If the police don't harass you out of boredom, the drugged up homeless man will chase you down the street screaming.

    Literally happened to me a few days ago, fucking hate it here.

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  • [–] 28 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    I'm fine with someone having a negative opinion of China so long as they don't use that as a purity test and demand everyone else denounce China, calling people "fascists" or "tankies" and refusing to work with them otherwise.

    Obviously, the vast majority of people on here don't live in China, and we generally have bigger fish to fry domestically to worry about meddling in their affairs. I would turn the question around and ask why people are so invested in making sure everyone sufficiently condemns China instead of working together to address the more pressing matter of class conflict.

    If they didn’t brigade those issues so much, straight up ban people, just because they disagree, or hlrefuse to have any real discussion that doesn’t center on just shutting other people down, then maybe people outside their group might take them more seriously.

    This is exactly how I feel about a lot of anti-China spaces. It's difficult to have a real discussion about almost any topic related to China because if you suggest that anything about them isn't the worst thing ever you get accused of being a fascist and dismissed, if not banned. If .ml goes too far in the other direction, then it is at least somewhat unique in doing so, and it's worthwhile to have a space where non-mainstream perspectives can be discussed.

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  • I’m fine with someone having a negative opinion of China so long as they don’t use that as a purity test and demand everyone else denounce China, calling people “fascists” or “tankies” and refusing to work with them otherwise.

    There are people who think China is actively imperialist instead of a semi periphery country and is as bad as the US and Western Europe, or even that they're worse, and that China deserves to be balkanized and beaten down. Those people are not leftists, they are Western chauvinists.

    Then there are people who may have a negative opinion on China, but will defend China against imperialist extraction and aggression. Those people are leftists that don't like China.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (10 children)

    I'm sure you've had this explained before, how a unipolar world is worse than a detente.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (9 children)

    In the same way an oligarchy is preferable to an absolute monopoly, sure

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (8 children)

    Yeah sure. And the way in how peace is preferable to endless imperialist proxy wars.

    And the way how reality is preferable to fantasy. How woke is preferable to asleep. Like acknowledging that the CIA funded the coup by far right elements in Ukraine. Like they did plenty of times before all over the word! But facts are only selected among alternative facts if they serve politics in this post truth world. Nothing can be true that could lead to diplomacy and acknowledging "this is partially our fault".

    Because if we acknowledged the historical facts and that Russia just might genuinely feel threatened by NATO we could move forward with diplomacy to end this war.

    All I see when I look at "leftists" today is the image of nazis endlessly screaming YES! YES! WE WANT THE TOTAL WAR! YES! YES! WAR!

    How sanity is preferable to insanity. Although I am slightly envious of your blissfully empty minds just flowing along with the majority opinion towards the end of history.

    You know if you were even a little bit sane, you'd think about how bad this war is for climate change and you'd let Russia have a little Crimea. God forbid a burgeoning empire have a little Ukraine. Like even if the evil caricature of Russia was true, in a utilitarian perspective it would be better to let them take half of Ukraine because of the insane amounts of greenhouse gases this war produces. Less people would be dead too. But you can only think in childish principles and scold anyone who doesn't want Ukraine fighting to the last man. Surrender was always a shitty option.

    Basically it's better in every way to not support an endless and pointless war.

    Anyway, lets agree to disagree.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    The only thing I've ever seen here labelled "extremist" and I've never really looked into it, is the claim that the Tiananmen Square Massacre was instigated by the CIA. Agian, I have never looked into it, but that's the only thing I've ever seen ruffle people's feathers.

    I really think we all have a lot in common here, and maybe it's just boredom, but we shouldn't be at each other's throats.

    I'm a strong believer in facts (wow can't believe I have to say that) but if someone compiled a large list of grievances with sources, that would be great. I always see lemmings labeld as "tankies" coming in with troves of links and sources, but never anyone else.

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