505
Food served to US service men & women. (europe.pub)
submitted 1 month ago by to c/mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world
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[–] 2 points 1 month ago (6 children)

And what of the firefighters and software engineers (and healthcare professionals) who just so happen to be doing those things in the military?

They are contributing to military tasks the goal of which is subjugation of non-white people. Programming avionics so that planes can bomb Iran, fighting fires on carriers, etc. is unambiguously evil.

You doing them in the civilian sector is somehow a morally superior choice?

If we exclude doing such things for NATO military and espionage organisations, then it almost always is, yes.

You are just as much a protector of capitalism and the capitalist class as any person in the military

Lol no. If you can't see the difference between stopping fires from killing civilians or destroying buildings/non-military equipment, and directly contributing to things like subjugating Iran or defending invaders of Iraq and Iran from retaliation, you need to go to primary school or something.

your involvement in the healthcare industry is arguably just as problematic as military service if you are.

How so?

Do you consume animals products?

This is probably the closest you have made to a compelling point. However, in this case you would have to attack the people involved in meat production first, rather than people who merely consume those products.

Same goes for the other points in that paragraph.
Also, you do have to contend with the fact that those people were enslaved because of NATO's military.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    In the sense that any task done in the military is contributing to a military goal, sure. I'll remind the Goodwill employee that they're contributing to military goals the next time I'm shopping there. (Whether you're aware of it or not, Goodwill runs a lot of the logistics operations for at least RTC Great Lakes.) By that same logic, however, pretty much everyone in capitalist societies are also contributing to the "subjugation of non-white people." There are measures that can be taken to reduce one's problematic footprints, though. I just find that most people prefer to cast stones at others instead.

    Firefighters are compelled to protect the private property of the capitalist class. I'm failing to see how the military is somehow directly responsible for the person I was originally responding to living under a capitalist system whereas they are not. Mind you, non-capitalist communities have firefighting and even militaries. Neither occupation is inherently capitalistic.

    Regarding the healthcare industry in the US, it's a profit-seeking venture. Anyone who participates in it voluntarily (e.g., doing software engineering for healthcare companies) is directly involved in one of America's most backwards sectors of the economy. It's a system where people are financially ruined when they're the most vulnerable or even denied treatment for the purpose of enriching the healthcare sector's capitalist class.

    Why would I have to attack the meat producers first? Few meat producers are producing meat for the sake of producing meat. They produce meat because there's a demand for it. It's simple really: no one wants meat, no one produces meat. If you mean to say that most people lack the moral fiber to make ethical decisions when there's an unethical choice they enjoy, then I agree. We collectively suck when it comes to being responsible individuals. Likewise with products produced using child labor and such. In some instances, all someone can afford is unethically produced products. Most people don't even bother to put in the effort, though. Sacrifices are hard, and no one wants to make them. It's an unfortunate reality.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    compelled to protect private property

    No. I’m compelled, by my own judgment and heart (as what i do is volunteer), to save lives and then protect property.

    also, a working class homeowner is not part of the capitalist class. they are part of the exploited class.

    a business owner, sure. know what my first priority is? searching for and removing the workers first.

    you have some reading to do, buddy. i might suggest “The Jungle” first.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    Nice to meet a fellow volunteer on here. Of course, I also volunteer for the people. It is undeniably true that part of our responsibility is also the protection of private capital, though. That's all I was really making a point about.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    By that same logic, however, pretty much everyone in capitalist societies are also contributing to the “subjugation of non-white people.”

    Nowhere near to the same degree, however. Your attempts to equate these things is extention silly.

    I’m failing to see how the military is somehow directly responsible for the person I was originally responding to living under a capitalist system whereas they are not.

    Do you also fail to see how the USian soldiers are responsible for, for example, the tortures at Abu Ghraib? I guess you don't see that as any different from being a cashier in the US in terms of awfulness.

    Mind you, non-capitalist communities have firefighting and even militaries. Neither occupation is inherently capitalistic.

    However, non-capitalist societies of today are not responsible for the colonial subjugation of the Global South. Not sure why you are ripping them into this.

    Regarding the healthcare industry in the US, it’s a profit-seeking venture. Anyone who participates in it voluntarily (e.g., doing software engineering for healthcare companies) is directly involved in one of America’s most backwards sectors of the economy.

    Ok? Do they do anything comparable to bombing schoolchildren in Iran? What would be the good outcome of none of those people participating in the USian healthcare system?

    Why would I have to attack the meat producers first?

    The fact that you blame consumers of meat and the like - and not the producers, i.e. the people actually doing the bad thing - for the production of meat and similar things is also very silly.

    Also, do you agree that the rest of the world has a moral right to kill NATO's ss troopers, or do you think it would be great if I kidnapped, tortured and killed your family for money?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    So we agree that this is a matter of degree rather than kind. As for the degree of difference, I fail to see much of one between the non-combatant service member and, say, the average US citizen who pays no mind to how their lifestyle and choices impact the world.

    When you speak of the US military, you are speaking of an institution. It is an institution that you and I likely share similar grievances about. The difference is that I don't attribute moral condemnation on every person who just so happens to be in the military. Likewise with every person who just so happens to work for Amazon, Google, Walmart, etc. The cook serving on a military base is about as responsible for an atrocity that occurs in the middle east as you are responsible for whatever negative outcomes are associated with the way you earn and spend your money.

    Are you trying to ask what would be the good outcome of a massive labor strike in the US healthcare industry? Quite a lot of good could come from that. But, yes, profiting off the illness of children and sending their families into financial ruin is, once the scale is put into play, in my opinion, about as morally problematic as dropping bombs on children.

    I get the impression you're once again trying to excuse yourself of moral blame by saying the producers of animal products are significantly worse than the consumers. Much of the labor in animal "processing" facilities in the US comes from undocumented immigrants. Much of foreign meat comes from impoverished laborers or even slaves. Consumers of such products are directly funding those atrocities. And, yes, that also makes voters responsible for the atrocities that are perpetuated by their democratically elected governments.

    And no, I don't believe you have a moral right to be a terrorist.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago

    So we agree that this is a matter of degree rather than kind.

    This whole time you have been arguing, at best, that the degree doesn't matter (though, you did say once that consuming meat is worse than production, despite the fact that it's the production that is the problem), and that being a nurse in the private healthcare system in the US is exactly as bad as sniping children in Iraq.

    I fail to see much of one between the non-combatant service member and, say, the average US citizen who pays no mind to how their lifestyle and choices impact the world.

    One directly contributes to the goals of the most vile military in the world and can't be substituted by civilians, the other is usually as far removed from contributing to those goals as possible (with the consideration that people in NATO are generally forced to take part in NATO's economy, but are not forced to be in the military taken into account).

    The difference is that I don’t attribute moral condemnation on every person who just so happens to be in the military.

    Sure. Some actually do sabotage of the military, like Chelsea Manning.
    The vast majority don't.

    The cook serving on a military base is about as responsible for an atrocity that occurs in the middle east as you are responsible for whatever negative outcomes are associated with the way you earn and spend your money.

    Lol no. A military cook directly makes sure that the murderers and torturers do not go hungry and are in a perfect condition to murder and torture.

    Are you trying to ask what would be the good outcome of a massive labor strike in the US healthcare industry?

    No. I asked what would be the good outcome of there being no healthcare workers in the US. The soldiers striking was never in the picture.
    The benefits of there being no military in the US are clear and lack cons. The benefits of there being no healthcare workers in the US are dubious.

    I get the impression you’re once again trying to excuse yourself of moral blame by saying the producers of animal products are significantly worse than the consumers.

    The actual harm in this situation is done to the animals from whom the meat is made. This is done by the producers, rather than by the consumers. Not sure why you think that it's the other way around.

    And no, I don’t believe you have a moral right to be a terrorist.

    So, you agree, then, that becoming a USian terrorist for money is inexcusable, and that the rest of the world is in the right to defend itself from them however it sees fit?

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