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"What about human nature?" - how to respond (lemmygrad.ml)
submitted 2 weeks ago* by to c/asklemmygrad@lemmygrad.ml
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It seems that most of the time, my discussions with people about socialism and communism end up on the topic of "but people are inherently bad, or at least a few people are, and will always take advatange of others. Even during natural disorders, some go steal everything in the stores while other help strangers"

I always have a hard time arguing that human nature depend on the environment, that it takes a few generations, and that there is probably always going to be violence but it's marginal and can be taken care of.

What main ideas am I missing? And how to argue about this and respond to this central idea that refrain a lot of liberals?

Thank you!

If you have any theory that you want to point at, that would also be great

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[–] 5 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

You can ask questions about why do "bad" people do "bad" things. For example, why do people steal from stores? Would they steal stuff if they could afford it? Would people take advantage over others if there was a way to take advantage without hurting other people?

Or you can mention some counterexamples, like why don't people steal the free handkerchiefs at tables?

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  • [–] 7 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 child)

    > "Would they steal stuff if they could afford it?"

    What if the other person answers: "Yes. For the thrill of it."?

    > "why don't people steal the free handkerchiefs at tables?"

    Again, they could simply answer: "Some people do. Most people don't because the risk vs reward is not worth it."

    I don't find this line of reasoning convincing because it requires that the other person accept your view of the world.

    Someone who has fully internalized the "human nature is greed" indoctrination will not be convinced by you simply stating the opposite.

    > Q: "why do "bad" people do "bad" things"

    > A: "Bad people do bad things because they are bad people."

    As materialists this statement sounds like nonsense to us but you have to try and put yourself in the mind of the person you are arguing against: to them this statement makes perfect sense, and because it already explains everything it would be a waste of time trying to think of other reasons.

    More than that even: the mere fact that you are trying to find material reasons why bad people would do bad things is, in their view, you trying to justify and excuse those bad people doing bad things, which makes you a bad person too. This is how idealism works.

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