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Trump Is Reportedly Sending Israel $2.8 Billion in Bombs. You're Paying for Them (www.rollingstone.com)
submitted 2 weeks ago by to c/politics@lemmy.world
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paywall removed: https://archive.ph/lPnUo

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[–] 1 point 1 week ago (7 children)

You overthrow your government and seize the funds of the rich? At this point, how do you actually think this gets better absent that

I think I'm done. It's been an interesting and introspective week. And for that, I thank you.

Your 'solution' is violence - and I get that. There's a bunch of people with your opinion. I don't have it. I think if we have to get to 'overthrow', then we make things really bad for a long time for a lot of people; whereas we can use the system to put better people in the places of power and make things more better-er in a shorter timeframe. It might also make things bad for different people for longer time. I can't tell from where I sit. I happen to be one dude in a country of 350 million.

In all honesty, I've got a foot in both sides. When shit goes down, I'm in; but I'm not going to start it. I'll leave that up to people braver than me. I will block you if you fight me on this stance.

You imply I'm stopping at the 'lesser evil' strategy and I can't stress enough how much that's a stepping stone and not, or even a significant part of, my whole solution or even what I advocate for (My old instance is shutting down, you can see my older comments as korazail@lemmy.myserv.one and there are many versions of 'join your local org'). I vote for lesser evil right now while actively trying to make better options later so I don't have to and encouraging others to be part of the process.

I think we differ on whether that could actually work; which is a whole conversation on it's own since, if it can't, can democracy work at all? Do we all just shoot each other? And which side does that best serve?

My actually trying to make things better is done by being engaged with the processes that make decisions and tell others they can be engaged too. Back to the original original point. The 'both sides' one-liners reduce engagement. We should stop making them.

Don't pick a phrase from above to reply to. Respond to this: Should the average person attempt to be more or less engaged with their political systems?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (6 children)

    and I can't stress enough how much that's a stepping stone and not, or even a significant part of, my whole solution or even what I advocate for

    It will NEVER progress is exactly my point. You've chosen to always move to the right. The logic of why is not hard to understand.

    Should the average person attempt to be more or less engaged with their political systems?

    Of course. And that engagement should, in the US, primarily take the form of challenging the Democratic Party leadership as effectively as possible. They're the largest obstacle to the left currently.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago* (5 children)

    primarily take the form of challenging the Democratic Party leadership as effectively as possible

    What do you think I've been trying to say?

    I'm one dude. My next more effective way of challenging the leadership will get me locked up and then I can't challenge it again for like 10-20 years.

    And you're still sidestepping the point I was trying to make that was: engagement is helpful and discouraging it is not helpful.

    Edit: and just to clarify, "both sides" kinds of comments are discouraging. -- we can continue to argue about how to engage forever, I think, but this whole thread started with 'stop saying both sides'.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (4 children)

    This is nonsense. You're claiming that saying, accurately, that Democrats support almost all the same evil positions Republicans do is "discouraging"?

    Cool. Vote out the party leadership then.

    You seem, like most Democratic loyalists, to think that if you wish really hard, THIS time your lesser evil strategy is going to work. Once again, you've been trying it for decades, and THIS is where it has brought you to. The GOP firmly in control of the government, while you continue to lose to an insane game show host.

    I've told you how you can STOP doing that - and it STARTS with cleaning out the Democratic Party, and you ONLY do that by abandoning your lesser evil nonsense.

    We're done here.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (3 children)

    Cool. Vote out the party leadership then.

    That's literally what I'm trying to do. And I need help. We need more people in the process so that the leadership can be voted out if it doesn't reflect us. The 'both sides' comments discourage others from getting involved. That's what I pushed back on way back at the top of this thread.

    What's the other method, if not civic engagement? You seem to be hung up on the first half of my personal plan of less bad now while making more better later. I get that you think both sides are bad; but I think one side is less bad in general, and I see that making that party better requires more people to be part of it.

    You seem to have given up on the idea it can be better. I haven't. You said at the top that you had projects in your community that you were working on. Do they promote civic engagement, or are they palliative care for a terminal patient?

    Given some of your phrasing, I don't even think you are in the US, which is fine, but means we are talking more about the mechanics of politics than the details of US politics (though I get that they effect you; which is why the 'get out' part of your plan doesn't work in my opinion).

    My plan:

    1. Be involved in local decisions. Join my precinct and either go or send people I trust to the district meetings. Support and vote for local candidates like mayor and city council, sheriff, dog catcher.
    2. Encourage others online to do the same and push back when people discourage engagement. <-- we are here
    3. (this one would be neat) Mold my city/county/state into a beacon of hope, where the government works for the people and is no longer captured by self-interest. Mamdani in New York is a pretty good example of what I mean, but that requires not just support in the populace, but also support in the rest of the government to allow them to function.
    4. Get enough people in the districts to send people to the states to send people to the nation to elect people who aren't millionaires to positions of power in the party.
    5. Elect House, Senate and Presidents that are not millionaires or ancient and have the values of the people again.

    You seem to think I'm stuck at #2 forever. Which is discouraging. Which is why I keep pushing back.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (2 children)

    That's literally what I'm trying to do.

    Aren't you literally voting for them in the general, with your lesser evil strategy?

    You're conflating your strategy with civic engagement, as if that begins and ends with getting the vote out for Kamala.

    You seem to have given up on the idea it can be better.

    Not at all. I spend much of my time working on developing community projects for food, sharing, and the like - including software to enable those to work together (https://neighborsgoods.com/).

    I don't think things will get better in the US with your strategy - and as I've stated multiple times now, it's because I've been a part of that too many times. It is self-contradictory. We see that even here, where you're telling me you're voting them out by voting for them.

    Please consider what you're doing, and spend your efforts in a more productive way.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 child)

    as if that begins and ends with getting the vote out for Kamala.

    But that is explicitly not what I'm advocating for. I have described multiple times that it doesn't stop there. I want people to be *engaged* and I think that 'both sides'-isms make people depressed and give up; and I think more people engaged can solve the issues we face. I also fear that we might have passed the point where it can be fixed, but as this thread proved, I'm a bit stubborn.

    spend your efforts in a more productive way.

    I think the best way to spend my time is encouraging people to be visibly for something. Protest, Canvass, better yet, run for an office you think isn't well served (I'm doing some of those things while I think up these responses! Multitasking!). Maga was pretty good at that. I can't even see a red hat anymore without associating and there are several sportsball teams with a red primary color that probably don't like that now. I'll even posit that normal people engaging in the republican spaces is good too. I think both parties have been compromised by wealth and they would serve us instead if they had more people in them in general. At least on the democratic side, the people present set the rules so more of us means we can change the rules to serve us.

    Earlier today/yesterday:

    The GOP firmly in control of the government

    I get where you're coming from. But I think we have a disagreement here. Sure the "GOP" is in control, but what's really happened - in my opinion - is that *money* is in control.

    and Dude. Dude.. Dude...

    The more of us that are not money that are involved in the process, the more control WE get. Telling people it doesn't matter discourages involvement, and involvement is how I think things get better.

    That's my point.

    Your website seems neat. I'm on BuyNothing and they have a similar concept - with yours being more service based rather than effectively just recycling. I can't quite tell, since I can't sign up without sending email. I'd recommend some sort of 'find communities near you' that you can at least view without signing in; you might get more people who have a need connected with someone. But I'm also 100% behind taking people with a skill who have time and want to help and matching them with people that need help.

    Edit: My Lemmy instance was down for a day and didn't post this until recently. Hence the weird timestamps.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago

    Familiar with BuyNothing - actually one of the future projects the platform has is to make adapters to treat BuyNothing groups as another library for federation.

    Because, when you think about it, a gift is just a loan that doesn't expire, so it fits in nicely.

    We will have finders for things, we're still on our first instance for development is why.

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