▲ 50 ▼ What are your thoughts on the German Democratic Republic as a country. (europe.pub) submitted 1 week ago by Starimi@lemmygrad.ml to c/asklemmygrad@lemmygrad.ml 44 comments fedilink hide all child comments RIP to the German Democratic Republic
[+] dvb@lemmy.ml -20 points 1 week ago (7 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] knfrmity@lemmygrad.ml 27 points 1 week ago was very repressive and used torture to crush dissent. To expand on this, the post unification West German government ran a politically motivated enquiry into the crimes of the SED, criminally charged 30,000 former employees, and found no evidence of torture being used by the Stasi. From Stasi State or Socialist Paradise by de la Motte and Green, page 111. permalink fedilink source parent [–] knfrmity@lemmygrad.ml 24 points 1 week ago (3 children) very repressive and used torture to crush dissent. I thought that was the BND? It's also crazy how many West Germans have Stasi trauma without ever having set foot in the East. And were people actually shot for trying to leave or is that another reactionary myth? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] demeritum@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 1 week ago East Germany suffered a lot of emigration due to economic sanctions (they couldn’t trade with most of the world due to west germany’s lobbying and many of the people leaving where formerly expelled people from east and central Europe and therefore had no roots in the east, where housing was very much in shortage.) So if everyone who wanted to leave got shot, then there would be millions of dead germans recorded. Of course crossing a militarized border as a propaganda act to receive a more cushy life in the west (West Germany exalted defectors like South Korea today) would result in oneself getting shot. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Orion@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 week ago (1 child) I would like to know as well. I haven't read it yet, so I wonder if the answer is in "Stasi State or Socialist Paradise?" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] knfrmity@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 1 week ago A quick skim of the relevant sections doesn't talk about border guards, but does note that hundreds of thousands of DD citizens were permitted to emigrate to the west after the construction of the wall, and hundreds of thousands more travelled as tourists in the west every year. Border restrictions were also maintained on the part of western countries vis a vis the socialist nations, with the immigration authorities of West Germany taking special pride in picking and choosing which entry visa applications to approve and which to deny. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OrnluWolfjarl@lemmygrad.ml 24 points 1 week ago* Your first paragraph is mostly myth. I know enough East Germans who told me that the Stasi never bothered them and they never knew anybody personally who was bothered by the Stasi. Travelling to Western countries was a pain, but it wasn't impossible at all. Many people would go on vacations from East to West Germany. As far as repression, even liberal estimates guess that the number of "victims" was around 300 000 in a country with a population of 20 million. That's 1 in 1000 people. And what qualifies as a "victim" usually ranges from being questioned to being imprisoned wrongfully. There's very few documented cases of torture and execution (about 5000) for holding the wrong opinions, and all of these are in the early years of the state (1950-1960), at the onset of the Cold War and the paranoia that it involved. In a country that still had Nazis in hiding and heavy presence of Western spies, I'd say that's a pretty good outcome. The label of being an "authoritarian/totalitarian regime" mostly stems from having a one-party rule. But that's a very simplistic and very liberal view of the DDR. In many ways it was a lot more democratic than most countries today. People had a lot of say in the governance of the country. As an example: in the 1970s, the DDR established a system where any citizen could write a letter to any government official (all the way to the top) stating a complaint, request or suggestion. The office it was addressed to was required by law to a) do their outmost to fulfill the request, fix the complaint or examine the suggestion, and b) respond back within 4 weeks with a detailed report on what steps they took, what the outcome would be and if the answer was negative why exactly they failed or couldn't complete the desired outcome. Then a committee would collect all the data from these letters and make them public (how many were sent, how many were fulfilled and to what degree). This wasn't just a theoretical system. It is estimated that 2/3 of all DDR households had sent such a letter and about 70% of them received a positive outcome. permalink fedilink source parent [–] demeritum@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 1 week ago East germans used to work in West Germany and get social benefits in the east- that was a major reason for the wall to the be built as well. There was a ridiculous low number of deaths due to trying to jump the wall so to say- especially compared to the border walls of the west nowdays. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] knfrmity@lemmygrad.ml 27 points 1 week ago was very repressive and used torture to crush dissent. To expand on this, the post unification West German government ran a politically motivated enquiry into the crimes of the SED, criminally charged 30,000 former employees, and found no evidence of torture being used by the Stasi. From Stasi State or Socialist Paradise by de la Motte and Green, page 111. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] knfrmity@lemmygrad.ml 24 points 1 week ago (3 children) very repressive and used torture to crush dissent. I thought that was the BND? It's also crazy how many West Germans have Stasi trauma without ever having set foot in the East. And were people actually shot for trying to leave or is that another reactionary myth? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] demeritum@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 1 week ago East Germany suffered a lot of emigration due to economic sanctions (they couldn’t trade with most of the world due to west germany’s lobbying and many of the people leaving where formerly expelled people from east and central Europe and therefore had no roots in the east, where housing was very much in shortage.) So if everyone who wanted to leave got shot, then there would be millions of dead germans recorded. Of course crossing a militarized border as a propaganda act to receive a more cushy life in the west (West Germany exalted defectors like South Korea today) would result in oneself getting shot. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Orion@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 week ago (1 child) I would like to know as well. I haven't read it yet, so I wonder if the answer is in "Stasi State or Socialist Paradise?" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] knfrmity@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 1 week ago A quick skim of the relevant sections doesn't talk about border guards, but does note that hundreds of thousands of DD citizens were permitted to emigrate to the west after the construction of the wall, and hundreds of thousands more travelled as tourists in the west every year. Border restrictions were also maintained on the part of western countries vis a vis the socialist nations, with the immigration authorities of West Germany taking special pride in picking and choosing which entry visa applications to approve and which to deny. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] demeritum@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 1 week ago East Germany suffered a lot of emigration due to economic sanctions (they couldn’t trade with most of the world due to west germany’s lobbying and many of the people leaving where formerly expelled people from east and central Europe and therefore had no roots in the east, where housing was very much in shortage.) So if everyone who wanted to leave got shot, then there would be millions of dead germans recorded. Of course crossing a militarized border as a propaganda act to receive a more cushy life in the west (West Germany exalted defectors like South Korea today) would result in oneself getting shot. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Orion@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 week ago (1 child) I would like to know as well. I haven't read it yet, so I wonder if the answer is in "Stasi State or Socialist Paradise?" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] knfrmity@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 1 week ago A quick skim of the relevant sections doesn't talk about border guards, but does note that hundreds of thousands of DD citizens were permitted to emigrate to the west after the construction of the wall, and hundreds of thousands more travelled as tourists in the west every year. Border restrictions were also maintained on the part of western countries vis a vis the socialist nations, with the immigration authorities of West Germany taking special pride in picking and choosing which entry visa applications to approve and which to deny. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] knfrmity@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 1 week ago A quick skim of the relevant sections doesn't talk about border guards, but does note that hundreds of thousands of DD citizens were permitted to emigrate to the west after the construction of the wall, and hundreds of thousands more travelled as tourists in the west every year. Border restrictions were also maintained on the part of western countries vis a vis the socialist nations, with the immigration authorities of West Germany taking special pride in picking and choosing which entry visa applications to approve and which to deny. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] OrnluWolfjarl@lemmygrad.ml 24 points 1 week ago* Your first paragraph is mostly myth. I know enough East Germans who told me that the Stasi never bothered them and they never knew anybody personally who was bothered by the Stasi. Travelling to Western countries was a pain, but it wasn't impossible at all. Many people would go on vacations from East to West Germany. As far as repression, even liberal estimates guess that the number of "victims" was around 300 000 in a country with a population of 20 million. That's 1 in 1000 people. And what qualifies as a "victim" usually ranges from being questioned to being imprisoned wrongfully. There's very few documented cases of torture and execution (about 5000) for holding the wrong opinions, and all of these are in the early years of the state (1950-1960), at the onset of the Cold War and the paranoia that it involved. In a country that still had Nazis in hiding and heavy presence of Western spies, I'd say that's a pretty good outcome. The label of being an "authoritarian/totalitarian regime" mostly stems from having a one-party rule. But that's a very simplistic and very liberal view of the DDR. In many ways it was a lot more democratic than most countries today. People had a lot of say in the governance of the country. As an example: in the 1970s, the DDR established a system where any citizen could write a letter to any government official (all the way to the top) stating a complaint, request or suggestion. The office it was addressed to was required by law to a) do their outmost to fulfill the request, fix the complaint or examine the suggestion, and b) respond back within 4 weeks with a detailed report on what steps they took, what the outcome would be and if the answer was negative why exactly they failed or couldn't complete the desired outcome. Then a committee would collect all the data from these letters and make them public (how many were sent, how many were fulfilled and to what degree). This wasn't just a theoretical system. It is estimated that 2/3 of all DDR households had sent such a letter and about 70% of them received a positive outcome. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] demeritum@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 1 week ago East germans used to work in West Germany and get social benefits in the east- that was a major reason for the wall to the be built as well. There was a ridiculous low number of deaths due to trying to jump the wall so to say- especially compared to the border walls of the west nowdays. permalink fedilink source parent