No Stupid Questions

What do you define as fluency? you literally wrote this in English!

are you talking accent reduction? it's irrelevant to fluency for the most part. that's a cultural mark of power, that's it. if you want to give up some of your identity to blend in better you'd probably work at it more. i bet you have more integrity than that.

what are the issues with reading? there can be many reasons to struggle with reading in any language, not just foreign ones.

anyway, if there's a "too old for language" or "just some people cant", you, at 32, writing on an english forum, you aint it chief. you're doing fine the way you are 👑 just keep living with English in your life as much as you want it to be, enjoy learning new things when it's enjoyable, and go easy on yourself when it's not

Anyone who can learn one language, can learn an other.

But they will have to be willing and available.

It's important to keep in mind that the difficulty of learning a language is based on the languages you already speak. Finnish is a good example of this, as while Finnish children are able to learn it quickly due to its regularity, English speakers may struggle with how different it is (especially with some almost entirely unfamiliar concepts, such as the partitive case, which has no direct English equivalent)

Some people are barely fluent in their native language

No, pretty much everybody is able to acquire another language unless they have a neurological disorder that makes them unable to acquire any language at all.

You don't need to be young or be a child to acquire a language either. The critical period hypothesis is a causation-correlation fallacy at best. It points out many issues directly related to traditional language learning methods and not acquisition of another language at an older age; the issues it points out are the resultant bad pronunciation, spelling errors, grammatical errors upon trying to output etc.

These do not result from "improper age" or "an inability to learn another language", they result from how society as a whole has accepted "formal study" and "language courses" as the best ways to acquire a language, which they are definitely not.

Language acquisition is achieved first and foremost by comprehensible input in the target language. Hundreds and thousands of hours of comprehensible input. This can consist of any type of content a person enjoys watching, as long as it's language dense, easy to understand at the start and slowly harder going forward. A good figure to aim for is 10,000 hours of this.

Production of language, or output, is not beneficial to the learner, especially at the first few thousands of hours where it can permanently damage the learner's ability. The reason for early outputting being so detrimental to language acquisition is that as the learner doesn't yet completely know how the target language sounds, and they don't understand grammar rules intuitively yet because of the lack of input, anything they force out will in all likelihood be incorrect and they will unconsciously reinforce the incorrect grammar and pronunciation they just outputted.

So the best way to get to fluency is by doing as much input as possible and while starting out as much no output as possible. This is also usually called immersion learning.

You did mention immersion in your text, but considering that you live in an English speaking country you most definitely were forced to output early to at least survive, which damaged your speaking skills. The reason your reading may be bad is that you may not be reading enough English. If you're talking about language courses when you say “formal study“ and not just skimming through a grammar textbook for an easier time with immersion, which you most likely are, that may have harmed your perception of how English sounds too due to toxic input (the incorrect speech/writing of other learners).

Tatsumoto‘s website is pretty useful for more information and resources on input-based learning. It is primarily for Japanese but as language acquisition doesn‘t differ from one language to another it doesn‘t matter and you can just skip the Kanji-specific parts. I would just think twice about joining their community though as they are pieces of shit, but the website is really well made for a complete language acquisition guide that only uses Libre tooling.

Edit: The amount of misinformation in this thread is just sad. I reached basic English fluency at around 14 and I'm currently doing Japanese immersion, with my comprehension rate of the Japanese content I consume being around 90%. And I'm not 9 months old, as you can also probably tell.

Edit 2: I forgot about Antimoon's Learner Reports. Antimoon as a source is a bit outdated, but they have some interesting stuff in there as well.

Chiming in with more context, my PhD was in neuroscience and I worked in a language lab. As others have stated, there is a critical window for learning a language. The biology behind it is fascinating.

As early as about 9 months of age, your brain begins to decide what speech sounds are important to you. For example, in Japanese the difference between /r/ and /l/ sounds doesn't matter, but in English it does. Before 9 months, most babies can tell the difference between the two sounds, but babies living in Japanese-speaking environments (without any English) LOSE this ability after 9ish months!

Language is more than just speech sounds, though. Imagine all these nuances of language - there are critical moments where your brain just decides to accept or reject them, and it's coded somewhere in your DNA.

The older you are when you begin trying to learn a foreign language the harder it is. Like almost everything, actually.

Like with any other ability, like painting or playing an instrument, learning a language is something that some people can do better than others.

And while starting to learn a language as a baby or toddler has it's advantages (Our kids basically grew up bilingual), I started learning English in school when I was 11, and I still managed to learn it. Yes, native speakers will still tell me that I have an accent, but I'm good enough that they cannot place it, just that it is not native. With only 2-3 weeks a year in the UK, it is probably the closest I can get. Written English is another matter, anyway. I've probably read way more English books than the average native speaker...

I think when people are learning some new skill, eventually they reach a proficiency where they stop actively working on improving. Instead, they'll transition from "improving the skill" to "applying the skill".

Practice does not make "perfect". Practice makes permanent.

The thing about language is that you kinda have to start from a young age. The older you start, the more difficult its gonna get.

I was born in Mainland China, I immigrated to the US before I turned 10. It was difficult at first, but now I speak fluent English (American English) with no noticeable accents according to my classmates in highschool.

I wouldn't say to "give up", but like... have realistic expectations.

I'm never gonna learn french or german to nearly as good as a native speaker, not in this lifetime at least. If I hadn't immigrated that early, I'd never have the same proficiency in English. My brother who's just a few years older than me is horrible in English. But honestly, he's an abusive piece of shit that I feel better at the fact that I have better English proficiency than him (sorry to bring up my family drama, I'm going though a lot in life and kinda wanna vent a bit)

Anyways, good luck, its gonna be tough. Try your best 😉

So what I'm gathering from this thread is that since I'm 42, I probably shouldn't even try learning a new language? That's reductive but more or less the energy I'm getting.

For near-native fluency, there is an age cap at around 10 years. It's much harder for adults, as their critical learning period is closed: https://news.mit.edu/2018/cognitive-scientists-define-critical-period-learning-language-0501

However there is evidence that psychedelics can open up critical periods for social learning (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06204-3) and ongoing research about other critical periods, language learning being one of them.

Some people just can't, but that's fine, you're still just as valuable a person as anyone who can ! ^^

This doesn't answer your question, but I'm curious. You say your writing is good but your reading is bad. In my experience reading and writing are so intrinsically linked, and reading is the easier of the two. If it's possible can you explain the difference for you? I just find it really interesting!

Everyone's brain is wired differently.

but my speaking and reading are still bad.

Wow. For most people, reading is the easiest part, writing is more difficult, speaking is hard and understanding speech is the hardest.