1704
Still Don't Sleep Though (europe.pub)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/politicalmemes@lemmy.world
288 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] 1 point 1 year ago (10 children)

Bernie lost the popular vote

And yet he was the most popular politician in the country at the time. Fascinating how we can ignore the political machine of Billionaire-owned Media Empires and their pocket-politicians.

The neoliberal you're shadow boxing lives in your head.

If the Democrats want my vote from here on out? They have to EARN it. You've convinced me. This sense of entitlement to MY vote is entirely uncalled for, especially as their strategy includes funding the worst Republicans possible in the Primaries:

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/20/1106256047/why-democrats-are-paying-for-ads-supporting-republican-primary-candidates

...and then crying when it backfires.

I shall now default to non-voting. I will only vote for people who offer actual material policy gains like Zohran Mamdani does, Democrat or otherwise.

Any Democrat who fails to do this? Will either win without me or fail without me. Either way, I lose nothing. You have convinced me.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 10 child comments
    •
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Stop pretending you care about the Palestinians and working class people then.

    You don't. You care about you. The least you can do is own it so people who do know not to imitate you.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 9 child comments
    •
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)

    Real change for Palestinians and the working class? Is that material gain worth voting for.

    I bring up Zohran Mamdani as an example of exactly that, and you decide that I'm only in it for me? Lovely.

    Maybe we're not using that word "material" the same way. You seem to think that means I only care about "my money." I'm talking about actual, real world change instead of some Liberal Gesture that changes nothing.

    Democrats whose strategy includes moving Republicans to the Right to appear more "reasonable" and "in the center" are not real change for anyone. It is their strategy, demonstrably. Repeatedly. As cited above.

    Biden's closest thing to a campaign slogan was "nothing will fundamentally change." - and he delivered on that. My friends, neighbors, community were all still hurting from Trump the entire way through his term. And the more I looked, the more it was the same everywhere.

    Harris refusing to rebuke Biden? Was a critical misstep. As was allowing the party to carry on influencing Republican primaries for the same "centrist" appeal. Picking up Megan McCain and Dick fucking war criminal Cheney endorsements and refusing to alienate them was not the way to retain the Left or Youth.

    And denying it or ignoring it? Is demanding that I serve you the same hugbox echo chamber as a facebook feed.

    So... Are you "Blue no Matter Who" for Mamdani now that he has the Nomination? Or nah.

    Mamdani or no, Liberal. Put up or shut up - is that party a "big tent" that wants to include actual Leftists open to voting, or are we not allowed to actually participate in your Helldiver "Democracy"-that's-just-branding?

    I don't care about a single other word you say until I get an answer - is Mamdani a Democrat to you after winning the nomination on a platform of affordable living for all of NYC?

    The platform and organizing strategy that won him an unprecedented primary victory is a model for the party that needs to be emulated, repeated. Are you open to that? Because I can vote for that. I can bring others to vote for That who wouldn't vote otherwise.

    Which is it? Mamdani or no? Can your party compromise to the Left for a change now? Or is that privilege only reserved for Fascists in even a minority party, such as under Obama's first 2 years?

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 8 child comments
    •
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)

    There are more positions we need to vote for then just the one Mamdani ran for. Only voting for people who meet your personal purity test isn't a useful strategy.

    Harris refusing to rebuke Biden? Was a critical misstep. As was allowing the party to carry on influencing Republican primaries for the same “centrist” appeal. Picking up Megan McCain and Dick fucking war criminal Cheney endorsements and refusing to alienate them was not the way to retain the Left or Youth.

    Obviously. There can be more than one lesson to learn from an election.

    90% of your agrument is addressed to an imaginary neoliberal. All so you can larp about being so pure for only being willing to support one guy. We need more than the mayor of the New York to defeat fascism.

    I will only vote for people who offer actual material policy gains like Zohran Mamdani does, Democrat or otherwise.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
    •
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

    About Zohran Mamdani, say the words, Liberal: Vote Blue No Matter Who.

    Say it.

    Quit dancing around it, quit pretending this has nothing to do with everything else I've brought up in our discussion.

    Say the Line, Bart.

    Say it.

    Because when all I hear is "vote blue no matter who" unpacked, without acknowledging him? Is Liberal Cope, from a meat-bot that cannot acknowledge the reality implied by the principles it spews.

    No more dancing. No more trying to be clever. Say the fucking line, Bart, and be an actual person again.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
    •
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    I support Mamdani. I'm going to vote for the furthest left, viable candidates that I can. In most cases, in the short term, that's going to be neoliberals. Hopefully all the candidates will be socialist eventually.

    Your argument is fully committed to owning this neoliberal that you've invented. I don't care about what other people think about me. I'm way to close to the chopping block to care. So I definitely don't care about your views on this other person you're pretending to have an argument with.

    But you're argument is an excellent example of how to be politically ineffective so I'll keep dismantling it. People need to out grow this mindset of preserving their personal moral purity in order to be politically effective. Instead they'll need to learn how to analyze what strategies are the most useful.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
    •
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    But you're argument is an excellent example of how to be politically ineffective so I'll keep dismantling it. People need to out grow this mindset of preserving their personal moral purity in order to be politically effective. Instead they'll need to learn how to analyze what strategies are the most useful.

    You're spending time pressuring a post-anarchist voter to vote. Im a walking contradiction, but you won before this conversation started.

    I'm spending my time asking you to pressure the Democratic Party for a coherent platform. At the point in the election cycle where they could actually have something workable for the coming elections.

    They Democrats are our best electoral hope. Its time they took this seriously. If I promise to vote, can I ask you to demand the party infrastructure actually function?

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
    •
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    I don't control the Democratic party.

    Your argument is inherently accelerationist. Everyone needs to know how self-destructive it is.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
    •
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    The Acceleration is already locked in, and denying it is Liberal Fantasy. Now if we wanna pump the breaks? I need your help getting tools to build a movement.

    Looking back at the failure of Kamala is not how to convince anyone. At all. Ever. Its a great way to get written of as a useless Liberal that can only be trusted to fill out a rigged ballot.

    If you wanna dissect Kamala's failure, build a strategy to do better in that environment? Let's go, I'm down. But wallowing in "Kamala should be President" is how you get treated like a dirty lib.

    Come join us in reality. The "Glorious Past" was fucking terrible too.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    The Acceleration is already locked in, and denying it is Liberal Fantasy.

    There would be little point of having any interest in politics if this was true. As long as there are still people there is the ability to make things better. All fascism needs to triumph is for everyone else to do nothing.

    Incorrectly assuming there is nothing we can do lets the fascists win. There is no limit to how bad things get. The more elections people refuse to vote for neoliberals the worse things will get. And the longer the fascists are in power the harder it will be defeat them in elections.

    Its a great way to get written of as a useless Liberal that can only be trusted to fill out a rigged ballot.

    We should fill out ballots if we get them. The wider the margin of victory the harder it will be for the fascists to rig elections. And we should expect there will be ballots, because to do otherwise is to comply in advance.

    But wallowing in “Kamala should be President” is how you get treated like a dirty lib.

    Everyone should have voted for Harris in the last election. Arguments against this are accelerationist and must be refuted at every opportunity.

    Come join us in reality.

    We should vote for neoliberals when the choice is between neoliberals and fascists. Fascism harms us all and so we shouldn't be complicit in our destruction by allowing fascists to win.

    The “Glorious Past” was fucking terrible too.

    Giving up cultural capital to the fascists is a needless ceding of ground to fascists. We should celebrate what American has gotten right while still criticizing what American has gotten wrong.

    The point of criticism is to improve a thing you love. Mamdani loves New York City. It's why he wants to improve it with socialist policies. He believes in the melting pot he knows NYC can be. And the people voting for him may or may not get his socialism but they definitely understand his passion for their shared home. People who don't love their country or least the good their country is capable of have nothing to contribute to a political movement whose goal is to improve their country.

    If all you're arguing for is to burn everything to the ground then you're getting what you wanted. You're not going to want Mamdani or some other socialist to be president. They're going to put a stop to the acceleration and build America up. But the only way socialists candidates can even win an election is for people to fill out ballots.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
    •
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    There would be little point of having any interest in politics if this was true.

    I beg to differ. The Climate is Changing, we need to pump the breaks on that. On the Concentration Camps. On everything we see.

    Acknowledging the Accelerationists are in power is not the same thing as siding with them.

    Incorrectly assuming there is nothing we can do lets the fascists win.

    Agreed. But assuming that the only thing we can do is Vote? Is just as useless. Go actually help a person today.

    Everyone should have voted for Harris in the last election.

    Agreed. And the Party should have let Bernie win the 2016 Primary. But continuing to talk about them as though they are current day issues is as absurd as pretending Trump is some kind of Populist.

    Giving up cultural capital to the fascists is a needless ceding of ground to fascists. We should celebrate what American has gotten right while still criticizing what American has gotten wrong.

    Have you actually read "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn? Or are you just referencing Grade School fairy tales with "what America got right"?

    I'm worried that by "refusing to cede cultural capital" that all you're doing is cosigning the same roots of fascism that made Trump inevitable.

    I'm worried you're not prepared to actually address the criticisms of people actually harmed without tone policing the critique like you're a Kamala staffer, and find it escalate from there:

    https://www.therednation.org/the-red-nation-podcast-3/

    This is why the indigenous didn't swing for Kamala, by the way.

    But the only way socialists candidates can even win an election is for people to fill out ballots.

    Sure, I'll vote. Again. But whether I come alone or with friends depends on whether the party allows a platform worth voting for.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent