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General Discussion Thread - Juche 115, Week 31 (europe.pub)
submitted 2 months ago* by [M] to c/genzedong@lemmygrad.ml
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Welcome again to everybody. Thank you for joining us for the time-honoured tradition of our group, here is the weekly discussion thread.

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[–] 4 points 2 months ago (5 children)

In case you didn't know, the true pacifist ending isn't available on your first playthrough anyway. You must complete at minimum one neutral ending first.

Undertale became massively popular so now everyone knows everything about it, but the game is designed for players to come into it blind & with the expectation that it'll be a normal JRPG. You're meant to kill monsters, be surprised that they stay dead, finish the game to learn why, and then be told to avoid combat as a new game+ challenge run. You're not supposed to know the gimmick beforehand and start the game with the challenge run.

There's something to be said about how subversive things lose their appeal when they become so popular that they lose their subversiveness. But yeah, go do some grinding because you're probably level 1 and have garbage equipment.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    I see. No wonder it feels jank then. I'd heard about the pacifism thing before playing it for the first time and so not only did I expect the game to not be so combat-heavy, I didn't know there was some thing where you can't fully be one the first time anyway?

    There’s something to be said about how subversive things lose their appeal when they become so popular that they lose their subversiveness.

    From the sound of it, because I knew some things about it going in (apparently too much), it became annoying in part because it doesn't expect me to know things and beeline right past its subversive ploys to try to get the "best ending".

    So I'm essentially playing the game "wrong" because I didn't treat it like it's a typical "fight and level up" video game. It sure sounds like the designer did not account for a person doing that and instead designed on the basis that the player would necessarily treat it like a "normal" game.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Yeah you did well to avoid story spoilers but you did get spoiled on game's premise, which is arguably more important, so now you pretty much are playing it wrong. Undertale is best when it's subverting your expectations but it falls flat if you don't have those expectations in the first place. But to be fair, this is a kickstarter indie game from a creator previously best known for making music and who had only developed an earthbound ROM hack up until then. By all means, undertale should've been a niche game and it's weird that it blew up as much as it did. I don't fault the developer for designing his game with the assumption that people will treat it the same as the billion other indie RPGs.

    Like with that boss you mentioned, she's designed to be challenging for a player with good gear and a high LV. Then you beat the game and are told to replay it without fighting. Then during a second playthrough, you remember this boss when you reach the point where you can buy her key item. Then you're relieved that you don't have to fight her again, but without your gear and stats.

    I feel confident in saying that you're not meant to know in advance that this boss is optional because you're not supposed to know at first that fighting as a whole is optional. The key item is better understood as a mercy for repeat playthroughs than a secret requirement.

    This video is tangential, but I think you'd be interested. It covers what RPGs is like from someone with nearly no gaming experience at all. The player didn't resonate with undertale either because she didn't recognize the tropes that it subverts so it just came off as boring and irritating.

    https://youtu.be/YBRTg74ZhLU

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    That makes sense.

    The video was interesting, thanks. It does seem like even though I'm experienced in video games where she isn't, I got annoyed because I expected it to be a break from normal RPGs and it's apparently more like a heavy-handed message about them that needs you to come in thinking of it as a normal RPG in order for it to work right. In both cases, I guess you really need to come into it with a very specific idea about it.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    That's true. I guess only the vanishingly small demographic of people that like RPGs but haven't heard of undertale can still experience it as intended. At least everyone can still enjoy the charming characters and catchy music regardless.

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