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[–] 9 points 1 day ago (53 children)

Lets say you have a 300mi range EV. that sounds great, until you realize you can't actually use it all.

We like to save the bottom 20% for emergencies and battery longevity, and fast charging is too slow above 80% to be worth it, so effectively, on a road trip. only the 20%-80% range is usable. Your 300mi+ range just turned into 180mi of usable range. And then factor in ~10% battery degradation over time, or range reduction in winter conditions, and you could easily have as little as 150mi of actual usable range between charging stops. And that's assuming the charging stations are perfectly spaced apart.

That's only a little more than 2 hours at highway speeds. And that's not along time to be driving, even for a single person. In gas cars, we will regularly do 3-4 hours without stopping at all. And if we do stop for a break, it's rarely at gas stations or places with charging stations. Those are typically awful places to spend the limited amount of time you have on a trip.

In practice, the charging interval is far, far less than the ideal 300mi and far more frequent.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 hours ago (1 child)

    Refusing to use the bottom 20% of your 300 mile pack is astonishing to me.

    I understand having some buffer in case you need to divert to an alternate charging location but most people in most parts of the US don't live or travel places where charging stations are THAT far apart.

    And there is no danger to battery health with driving down to 5% or lower state of charge. You're SUPPOSED to go that low on long trips. The only potential impact to battery health is if you leave it parked at a super low or super high state of charge, and even then doing so for a day or two on rare occasions is not gonna be a problem. Furthermore most EVs already lock off a small portion of the pack's range specifically for battery longetivity so unless you're in a Tesla or are under a recall or something you shouldn't worry about this so much that you refuse to use the last twenty percent

    Use your whole battery! It's there for you to

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  • [–] 1 point 8 hours ago*

    Not that crazy. 20% of 300mi is ~60mi which is slightly more than when the low fuel gauge lights up on most gas cars. And most people refuel gas cars long before that light comes up, when there's ~100mi of range left. Why is such behavior suddenly so crazy when you translate that to EVs? I'll grant you that it's unnecessary in most situations, but why is being a little more cautious than others about preventing a very inconvenient situation warrant the word "astonishing"?

    Only last winter I was stuck in a snow storm due to traffic and road conditions in my EV. That route took an extra 10% off my battery than calculated due to running the heater. 10% is the bare minimum margin of safety I will ever accept, and I will not feel comfortable at all having only 10% buffer.

    Also consider a gas car can be refueled with a can in desperate times, allowing you to get to the next gas station. EVs have no such equivalent. Best case, you're waiting for a tow. Running out of fuel in a gas car is inconvenient. Running out of battery with an EV is devastating. Considering the difference in consequences, it is well worth the extra caution.

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  • [–] 25 points 1 day ago (16 children)

    I used to think this way until I actually drove an EV long distance. This tech is mature and useful for road trips. Most people aren’t willing to drive 12+ hour days anyway and that’s the only real way to get a time advantage out of a gas car.

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  • [–] 13 points 23 hours ago (7 children)

    I think the issue is like trucks in the USA. People buy what they think they need not what they actually they need and then underutilize it.

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  • [–] 4 points 16 hours ago

    Speaking from embarassed experience, I live in the USA thought it would be OK for me to get a pickup truck because I literally do work in the trades. Even I underutilize it tbh, and I'm thinking about selling it. I mostly just drive it to and from work like any other car, and then move things around in the company vans, lol.

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  • [–] -4 points 17 hours ago* (5 children)

    You don't need it 99% of the time, but in that 1% when you need it, you really need it. 99% simply isn’t enough because that 1% is really important.

    Time on a road trip is way more important than time in regular drives. I don’t mind being 30min late getting back home from work, that happens all the time from traffic, but 30min late on a roadtrip means you’re missing daylight, or an appointment, or that restaurant you really wanted to try is closed. These are not imaginary hypotheticals, all of these situations have regularly happened to me even with gas cars.

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  • [–] 6 points 16 hours ago (2 children)

    This is fascinating to read because it's completely the opposite of how I think.

    If I was regularly 30 min late coming home from work I would scream. Nobody has time for that!

    30 min late on vacation? Who cares? You can't even plan any trip with that tight of tolerances, anyway. Too many factors beyond your control could delay you by more than 30 minutes, easily. As you say, this type of thing can happen even with gas cars, or trains, planes, boats, bicycles, etc.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 hours ago* (1 child)

    Americans don't get much vacation time. Which makes what limited vacation time we do get much more precious. Losing 30min out of 365 days is a bummer, but losing 30min out of a 7 day vacation is worse. If you have the choice of spending an extra 30min at Walmart vs spending that 30min at the beach or sleeping in at the Hotel, which would you pick? That is exactly the trade off you make when choosing between a gas car and an EV on a road trip.

    As you say, this type of thing can happen even with gas cars, or trains, planes, boats, bicycles, etc.

    Yes, but it's worse with EVs. Why would I willingly make my experience worse on a vacation?

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  • [–] 1 point 21 minutes ago

    If that's really how you feel, I implore you to slow down and enjoy the trip as much as the destination. Who cares about an extra thirty minutes if you're basically enjoying all of them. And you're wasting much more of your vacation than thirty minutes if you hate the whole time you're travelling. Perhaps you have a perspective issue, more than a propellant issue.

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  • [–] 6 points 17 hours ago (1 child)

    And that 1% of the time is where renting is more effective perhaps even moreso with increasing gas costs

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  • [–] 1 point 14 hours ago

    While that's a nice and logical thought, the fact is renting a car for a vacation adds price to the vacation and if youre already committed to a gigantic payment for a new car, renting a car for a trip is a non-starter for many people.

    Not saying either is right or wrong. Everyone has to make their own value judgements for themselves.

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  • [–] 6 points 23 hours ago (4 children)

    Most people aren’t willing to drive 12+ hour days

    I like my roadtrip vacations. OTOH you can also rent for your yearly holiday, but this can get pretty expensive quickly.

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  • [–] 3 points 15 hours ago

    Oh yeah, I regularly drive 14+ hour days myself. This is why I know that most people won't, because most people act like I'm fucking crazy. Which is why I think most of them would do fine with an EV

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  • [–] 6 points 22 hours ago

    I own an EV

    I have never once paid to charge it at a charging station

    If I want to go on a long trip like you suggest for a few days, I can hire a vehicle (hybrid, obvs) and still be so far ahead financially that I wouldn't notice it

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  • [–] 1 point 17 hours ago (2 children)

    I used to believe the EV evangelists until I tried to drive EV on a road trip. I will never do it again. Why can't anybody just admit that there are real downsides which sometimes become a deal breaker?

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  • [–] 4 points 16 hours ago* (1 child)

    I guess different people work differently. I'm speaking from my direct experience; I was cynical as hell until I actually tried it, and it really wasn't as bad as I expected.

    Would I prefer an ICE car for a long distance road trip? Yes. Can I take an EV on a road trip and have a good time? Also yes. Was the EV cheaper than taking an ICE car an equivalent distance? Also yes.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 hours ago

    Yes. Can I take an EV on a road trip and have a good time?

    I mean, I get it, it's not the end of the world. But given the choice, I still would never choose an EV over gas on long road trips. The difference is large enough that it matters. Trips are the time when I have the least tolerance for hassle, and even small inconveniences add up really fast.

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  • [–] 25 points 1 day ago (6 children)

    That much driving sounds miserable

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  • [–] 9 points 23 hours ago (2 children)

    Well, 3-4 hours without stopping is not only miserable, it is also unsafe.

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  • [–] 6 points 19 hours ago (3 children)

    Where did you get the 10 % degradation from? Long time studies show way less, even with older models

    https://insideevs.com/news/801624/sweden-batter-degradation-group-test/

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  • [–] 1 point 13 hours ago

    Yeah, my Volt varies a bit, but after 7 years it has about 10% loss (51mi. -> 46mi.)

    Range has always been less in winter, but not 40%. On a day that never gets above -4, I can still get 29mi. off the battery.

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  • [–] 11 points 23 hours ago* (7 children)

    The usable range is 10%-100%. Nobody starts an EV road trip with much less than 100%. Though you may consider cutting a mid trip fast charge somewhere around 90%. Usually for me that’s because I see that I can get to my destination without going up to 100%

    Charging stations will eventually be spaced at close enough distances that you don’t have to think about where to stop. In a mature EV market there’s generally many more EV chargers than gas stations along a given route.

    And if we do stop for a break, it's rarely at gas stations

    I’m not sure I’ve ever stopped at a gas station to fast charge. I stop at roadside McDonalds (we have kids), cafes, supermarkets (last stop before a trip to a cabin), etc.

    How, in this day and age, could you not be aware that fast chargers are put up in more diverse places than gas stations? They’re not stinky. They don’t need to be separate from the businesses where car drivers want to spend their time.

    I’ve stopped at a fast charger at a small cafe in the middle of nowhere on the top of a mountain, you could take a wonderful hike there while your car charges. You do know you can walk away from the car while it’s charging… right?

    we will regularly do 3-4 hours without stopping at all

    My trip to my family cabin is around 3 hours. And the last 30min is through an actually snowy dirt road up a steep climb. And I still have 40% or so left. With skis in the roof. So get outta here with your arm chair expertise.

    Incidentally I don’t have to fast charge on this trip at all since we have electricity at the cabin. Super slow but I can get at least 80% which is plenty to get back.

    Anyone still bringing up winter in an EV conversation should be laughed out of the room now that Norway is at near 100% market share. And no, you can’t use “Norway is small” as an argument. Road trips are common here to start with, every other family has a cabin in the mountains. But Norway is also part of Schengen. The borders in EU/Schengen are open just like the US. The first post I saw on my EV car models Facebook group was a person planning a trip to Croatia.

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  • [–] 1 point 29 minutes ago

    I'm in the East Coast U.S. and with an adapter, we're basically at the effortless point now, especially for tesla drivers. There are still some tesla only spots that make it tough for CCS cars, but it just means that the pressure on CCS chargers is lower with most people choosing superchargers if available.

    Add in the fuel crisis, and even the high price at Interstate fast chargers is cost competitive with regular unleaded mile for mile, and cheaper at the right stations.

    Like Bebe's kids, Chargers don't die, they multiply.

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  • [–] -3 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) (4 children)

    Nobody starts an EV road trip with much less than 100%.

    That's exactly the problem. Yes you start a trip with 100%, but that only happens at most once per day. What about in the middle? You willing to sit a fucking Walmart for 1hr to get to 100%? We're not talking about a trip where you drive 3hr from home to the destination. I'm talking about road trips where you go half way across the country and do 5+hr of driving in a day, across multiple days.

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  • [–] 7 points 15 hours ago

    5+hr of driving in a day

    5 hours of driving is nothing. This is what I'm saying, the daily time savings between gas and EV only makes a serious difference once you get to the 10-12 hours/day range, which most people are unwilling to do anyway, thus rendering it kind of a moot point.

    Also, the longer distance you go, the less expensive the trip will be by EV. You don't have to remember to change your oil before you leave on a trip, and you don't have to worry about oil changes partway through very long trips.

    You willing to sit a fucking Walmart for 1hr to get to 100%?

    With the EV I was road trippin in it took like 30 minutes. I would use the Walmart bathroom, buy some candy, and read a book. I survived to tell the harrowing tale. I will say, big box store bathrooms are typically much cleaner than gas station bathrooms

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  • [–] 2 points 15 hours ago (1 child)

    you don't charge to 100% every time if you don't need to. you charge up to 80% or enough to get you to the next charger, whichever is lesser. Charging from 80-100% is gonna take as long or longer than charging from 5-80% in most EVs

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  • [–] 0 points 7 hours ago*

    That's exactly what I'm saying. You go to a supercharger an you don't reach 100%, you only get to 80%. That reduces your range. Reduced range is the main problem. Only reaching 80% is a problem.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 day ago (2 children)

    Except nmc batteries have no issue with being below 20 or above 80 percent soc, they have an issue with staying outside those values for longer periods of time. That's why people say you shouldn't charge above 80% in your day to day driving, because you'll usually charge it to 100% and then just have the car parked in your driveway for hours with a full battery. When you're on a road trip, you can absolutely use the bottom 20% of your battery as you'll be charging it up immediately. You can also charge it up to 100% before starting your road trip with next to no effects on the battery for the same reasons.

    So, yes, there's obviously degradation for older cars and there's the obvious effect of batteries charging slower the more charged they are, so I'll give you that you won't fully charge your car during a road (if you don't have kids, I guess, as ours will absolutely drag out the break long enough to have the car sitting at 100%), but at the end of the day, the effects aren't nearly as terrible as you describe, as you'd be at about 90% range for the first episode of the trip and about 80% for consecutive ones.

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