Ask Lemmy

I just humour people when they tell me political opinions I don't agree with. No one ever changes their minds.

absolutely not and i imagine the same is true for leftists.

My family including my parents moved from rural conservative to progressive left (probably somewhere around Social Democrat).

I've spent A LOT of time trying to truly reach out to conservatives, Trump supporters, from this angle. It requires a lot of time, but know two key things:

1. All you can do is plant seeds for neurons to grow. Belief structures get locked in like worn paths through a jungle, and so carving new ways requires an immense amount of time. You'll never see the fruits of your labor yourself — both because the vast majority of people have an ego they protect at all cost, and because by the time something "clicks" and new neural paths build, you'll be long gone.

2. Always recognize that your target audience is not the individual, themselves, necessarily, but the onlookers to the discussion. Always hold the high road. Always be courteous and let them throw the first punches. You'll have a much easier task convincing the fence-sitters whose egos aren't directly on the line as a direct participant in the conversation.

You can increase the probability you'll reach these people by ending the conversation on a cordial note once you realize arguments are starting to become circular. You also know you made some decent ground if they just ghost the conversation or delete their entire comment chain without warning. You pierced their ego; they feel embarrassed. You've given them food for thought. Try to also frame how you got out of the echo-chamber so it's not necessarily an attack on them, but an example of growth on yourself.

It's a thankless task, the victories you'll never see until we see it on a statistical level. The problem is that it's a competition for who commands their attention the most, and you'll never compete with Twitter, Fox News. You just have to hope they have that eureka moment, combined with perhaps a direct run-in with the fascism you warn about.

While I haven’t convinced anyone, I have seen things shift to a more class conscience level.

Luigi might have been the turning point. Slowly right wing spaces are turning anti rich.

I haven’t been able to convince anyone, but I’ve gotten people to agree if I just focus on “I want this in my country cause it would benefit me as a working class man”.

So imo it’s less about going head on and more about finding something you could agree with and just solidifying that, if they are gonna move left it’s gonna happen slowly by them observing their life.

If it means anything, I started my journey on lemmy as an armchair socialist who in practice was more a welfare capitalism type person. Now I’m a full on anarchist (anti-capitalist). So a steady stream of influence, especially when people make good points and it helps make sense of my suffering, has shifted my political views strongly.

(But the basis for that shift was already kind of laid out, I’ve been fascinated by anarchist critiques for a while, and one of my favourite political authors was one. But the sort of being in a community of likeminded people [lemmy] and having significant suffering at the hands of the current system that made me more strongly shift towards those views).

On the other hand. Simply having a few conversations with my vaguely left wing partner about my views has led her to go from vaguely social democrat to anarchist.

I think the lesson is change is possible, it’s just a slow series of events that add up. Usually there isn’t one thing that straight up switches a person.

You have two options:

1. Insist upon yourself, with presentable and short facts hard to deny
2. Argue from their perspective and draw their ire towards the party they (used to) support with their own morals

People change minds even if you don't see them do so directly, option 1 could pay off in the future as they shift certain narratives, understand certain topics and gain new morals or goals, but option 2 is immediately and pays off if they listen, someone who supports war would be turned off from supporting trump if you, say, used trumps incompetence to blame him for 'risking American troops'

The person you're taking to online has a vested interest in defending the position they put forth. Someone reading your response who initially agrees with the person you're talking to does not have a defensive attitude to the same degree. Your arguments will be much more successful with the observer than with the other participant. You will probably never know if you had an impact on the observer. That's what you should be aiming for though.

Does it count if I did it to myself?

Feel free to disagree but in my own experience observing people any tipe of radical thought is usually a mental health issue. You can't treat mental health through comments.

I'm done trying to change minds, they're sure as shit not changing mine. I just can't with these people anymore. You can't reason someone out of an opinion they didn't reason themselves into.

Public shaming is the way to go, it's served humanity plenty well in the past to curb unwanted behavior and minority opinions. Shove the hypocrisy down their throats and revel in their little shocked Pikachu faces.

Using their own tactics against them is cathartic and effective, they're used to people trying to reason with them and then dragging you into more and more insane arguments and stances. The reins really come off when you realize you can lie just as much as they do and hand wave any counterarguments. Burden of proof? How about I just throw some more bullshit at you, etc. Quote the bible, extra points for obscure/confusing passages. Frustrate the fuck out of them, its only fair.

I'm conservative, but I've never seen it happen in either direction. Internet arguments are more about the audience than the tankie you're arguing against.

I have been told by multiple people (so, like, two. Maybe 3) over the years that things I have posted have changed their minds and their leanings on political topics. But these were not any of the people I was directly addressing. I think they may have all been before the rise of Big Social, too.

I've watched conservative theists unravel and admit things about themselves openly as they crash out under questioning they started by making a thread on debate forums, but they always relapsed by the next day.

I am a lurker, mostly. I have never tried to change anyone’s opinion online that I can think of. But as a lurker, you can bet that my viewpoint might be changed by a good argument, even if it’s not directed at me. Just as it happens with religion, I’m sure there are conservatives (or leftists for that matter) on the internet that may have cracks beginning to form in their worldviews, and the right exposure on the internet can send them down a rabbit hole of questioning and considering alternatives. I suspect a major part of the reason I have gotten more and more leftist myself over time is because of exposure to good arguments on the left and much fewer on the right, plus the lack of desire from the right to partake in good faith arguments.

So what I’m saying is, your argument may not get through to the target, but there is collateral … well, not damage, but you get what I mean.