Tommy Siegel | Bluesky

TranscriptA Helpful Guide To Star Wars vs Star Trek

Star Wars

[Image of Han Solo in Tommy’s style]

  • Don’t start with the ‘first’ movie, let me tell you where to start
  • Looks like ruined farm equipment in space
  • In summary: the past was horrible
  • JJ Abrams ruined it

Star Trek

[Image of Jean Luc Picard in Tommy’s style]

  • Don’t start with the first season, let me tell you where to start
  • Looks like a cruise ship in space
  • In summary: the future is incredible
  • JJ Abrams ruined it
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[–] 20 points 1 day ago (29 children)

What the actual fuck? Episode VIII is quite literally the worst mainline Star Wars movie made. I consider even episode IX to be better, not by a big margin but still better for no other reason than to try and salvage the clusterfuck that was episode VIII. Here's a short list of things episode VIII got wrong.

  • Threw out pretty much every story thread Episode VII set up
  • Did a complete character assassination of Luke
  • Turned Leia into a force user because, well I don't even know why.
  • The entire casino world plotline which is not just entirely irrelevant to the plot but also completely fucks with timeline of events.
  • That whole thing between the purple haired captain? and Poe. Especially that super secret plan that for no fucking reason was never explained to the rest of the crew.
  • Breaking the whole hyperspace explanation and the whole space combat consistency with the hyperspace kamikaze
  • The asian lady plot
  • The ending sets up literally nothing for episode IX

The whole movie is one massive misstep that derailed the entirely sequel trilogy. I get Episode VII wasn't anything magnificent but the entire point of episode VII was to reaffirm to the fans (who were skeptical about the continuation of Star Wars considering Episode III didn't really leave on a high note and Episode VI kinda tied up the loose ends) that the series is going somewhere and isn't nosediving off a cliff. That's why they effectively redid the Episode IV plotline, because it was a safe starting point that sets up characters for episodes VIII and IX. Abrams even left a rough draft for VIII and IX but then Johnson was given full creative control to throw the entire trilogy draft out the window and do whatever the fuck he wanted. We don't know if episode IX could've ever been good because episode VIII fucked the entire trilogy so hard it became impossible to salvage.

The only context in which Episode VIII could be better than IX is if you view them as individual movies and not a part of a trilogy. And you know, Episode VIII probably could've been an okay standalone film. But it wasn't. It had to respect what episode VII set up and it had to give episode IX something to follow up on. It didn't neither and for that both Episode VII and IX are worse off simply because episode VIII exists. In fact the movie almost killed the entire franchise by taking all the characters and storylines and driving them off straight off the cliff.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 day ago (1 child)

    You're right with all your bullet points. Episode VIII has a fundamentally broken plot in many ways. The thing that it has going for it though is that it has a few actual themes that I found interesting. I like that Johnson questioned the whole light side dark side polarity and that Rey came from nobody in particular. I liked the rejection of the Skywalker family and assertion that heroes could come from anywhere. If it had followed a better movie, "let the past die" would have been a legitimate highlight for me. It didn't work in the trilogy it's a part of, but if the trilogy had been based around the VIII we got I think it could have worked as a sequel trilogy to Star Wars.

    And the thing is that I think those are about the only things I particularly like in the entire sequel trilogy besides Babu Frik (I hate how much I love that little dude), and that makes episode VIII the best of a trilogy of bland to bad movies for me. Episode VII was the best constructed of them, and it had cool stuff, but it didn't do anything that made me think "oh that's interesting" (like VIII did) because so much of it was nostalgia based 'memberberries. You're right about it being made to address fan concerns, but that was only relevant in 2015, and I'm looking back at in 2026. Episode IX was just a train wreck start to finish, and I don't particularly blame it because it had the unenviable task of following up VIII, but it's still just bad with nothing interesting to show for it.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 day ago (16 children)

    7 put Luke on an island during a war, 8 was just doing the best it could with Abrams' nonsense mystery boxes

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  • [–] 0 points 1 day ago (15 children)

    Really? Episode 7 forced episode 8 into such a narrative corner the best they could do was turn Luke into a green titty milk loving weirdo?

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  • [–] 4 points 23 hours ago (14 children)

    You say that like cow milk doesn't come from a titty. Like you've been alienated from the source of your food. Luke isn't alienated from nature, he's connected to all the nature around him. He knows exactly where all his food comes from. He uses the force and his knowledge to survive.

    Connecting with nature is an important part of spiritual enlightenment. The old Jedi lived up in a tower above a city. They were alienated from nature. Luke is practicing the way of the light side of the force every day. Remember, it's an energy field that binds all life together.

    You're just like Rey: alienated from the land, afraid of titties. And that is not the way of the new Jedi. Luke may be disillusioned with the Jedi as heroes and peacekeepers, but he's perfected his monk game in a way most Jedi never did.

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  • [–] -1 points 22 hours ago (13 children)

    First of all I grew up among cows, chickens and other farm animals. I've drank warm milk straight from a cows teat. I've collected chickens eggs from the nests. I've spend morning foraging mushrooms from the forest to make a mushroom stew. Unless you live in a land largely untainted by urbanism I'm probably far more connected to the land than you are.

    And your little nature spiel is irrelevant to the movie because the movie doesn't need to show cleaning out shit from a chicken coop to show how connected a character is with nature. The same way the movie didn't need to show Luke drinking green titty milk to show he's connected to nature. There was a million different ways to show that, just look at how Episode 5 introduced Yoda. Drinking milk was a deliberate decision to make him look weird because while I'm well aware where milk comes from other people aren't and they're going to think it's weird.

    And the milk thing is just a meme that everyone knows, there's more wrong with the character. Such a throwing away his own lightsaber. Which would make sense if he considers lightsabers irrelevant to the new teachings of the Jedi, except he still uses that very lightsaber when going against Kylo. And perhaps the most damning fact about how the character was butchered came from Mark Hamill who's been very public about disagreeing with how the character was written for episode 8.

    And finally, nothing you said indicates the root problem with the character was that Episode 7 stuck Luke on an island.

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  • [–] 3 points 16 hours ago (9 children)

    Sorry, I need to come back to this one, I'm confused.

    So you're a titty milk drinker, and Luke is a titty milk drinker, and you don't think there's anything wrong with titty milk drinking. But you don't like that Luke did it in the movie. Because.... why?

    Because it's socially frowned upon? You don't like that Luke defied social norms?

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  • [–] 0 points 15 hours ago* (8 children)

    Of course because it's socially frowned upon. This isn't Luke defying social norms, Luke is not a sentient being here. Luke does what the director makes him do and the director made him to something socially frowned upon. I don't like it because the director took a character I'm fond of and turned him socially unacceptable. Let me get my point across a different way because it's not drinking the milk that I have an issue, it's the socially frowned undertone that the director made the character subject to.

    Would you be as defensive if the director had decided Luke would do one of the following:

    • rip a massive fart?
    • bit his nails?
    • pop a zit?
    • pick his own nose and eat his snot?
    • scoop out his earwax and eat it?
    • drop his pants and take a shit?
    • jerk off?

    All of those things are "normal" in the sense that somewhere in the world there's a person who does one or some or all of those things. Generally none of those things are considered socially acceptable to do in the front of others. Unless you're a 100% social weirdo there's at least one thing in that list that you think is socially frowned upon. Would you not be critical if Luke had done that thing?

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  • [–] 2 points 14 hours ago (7 children)

    Luke has always done socially controversial things. He's always been a rebel. On the farm, he rejected his parents' expectations that he'd be a farmer, because he wanted to see the galaxy. He rejected the empire's propaganda and joined the rebel cause. He rejected anti-Force norms pushed by Han to learn from crazy old Ben. He rejected Yoda's pressure to stay and learn. And he rejected every norm of how people act in war, by choosing to give Darth Vader mercy.

    Luke has always rejected the easy and safe path. He's always chosen adventure and independence over comfort. The titty milk is consistent characterisation. He's Luke Skywalker, he does whatever the fuck he wants and he doesn't care all that much what others think about it.

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  • [–] 0 points 14 hours ago (6 children)

    So let me get this straight. If instead of drinking titty milk Luke had dropped his pants and started furiously masturbating your reaction would be:

    He’s Luke Skywalker, he does whatever the fuck he wants and he doesn’t care all that much what others think about it.

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  • [–] 1 point 14 hours ago (5 children)

    Depends if it served the story. Can you describe a scenario where masturbation fits the story as well as the milk does?

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  • [–] 1 point 12 hours ago (4 children)

    You didn't say it has to serve the story. You said he can do whatever the fuck he wants.

    And the milk drinking doesn't serve the either but you're hellbent on defending that.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 hours ago (3 children)

    Like I said before: Titty milk illustrates his connection to nature, and it's the path of adventure and independence. That serves both the story being told, and consistent character traits. It's the most Luke Skywalker thing he could have done.

    I'm willing to entertain the idea of masturbation possibly highlighting his connection to nature, his sense of adventure and independence. But you gotta explain it, because I'm not getting it yet.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 hours ago (2 children)

    You want to cite the source where Johnson says that's the intention behind the scene? Because without it you're just presenting your own made up narrative as a fact. Because I can give you alternative take, it represents him turning from a dignified jedi knight into an undignified weird hermit.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 hours ago (1 child)

    I used My media analysis skills to come to that conclusion, and I've thoroughly shown My work.

    Remember, Luke expected Yoda to be a dignified warrior, but he turned out to be a weird hermit instead. Star Wars has never been about knights in shining armour who do everything society expects of them. Star Wars is weird and gross and rebellious.

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  • [–] 3 points 21 hours ago (2 children)

    Which would make sense if he considers lightsabers irrelevant to the new teachings of the Jedi, except he still uses that very lightsaber when going against Kylo

    Nah, he views lightsabers as irrelevant, and he doesn't use a lightsaber against Kylo. He uses an illusion of a lightsaber, and he doesn't even attack with it. He just dodges and distracts. The lightsaber is nothing more than a symbol to distract Kylo. It's serving the same function as a set of jangling keys.

    And he had to have that pacifistic viewpoint, that anti-lightsaber viewpoint, because Abrams put him on an island during a war. The best answer RJ could come up with to that is that he's become a pacifist.

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  • [–] 0 points 21 hours ago (1 child)

    Would a pacifist pick up a weapon to defend themselves and even hit back? Because that's exactly what he did when Rey attacked him.

    I don't get your need to defend Rian Johnson. I have nothing against him. I loved Looper and I enjoyed Knives out movies. I'm simply calling out a stinker for what it is, a stinker. And the last Jedi is a godtier stinker.

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  • [–] 3 points 19 hours ago

    Yes, a pacifist would.

    I get that the movie has flaws, but it also has more vision and philosophy than any other Star Wars movie, and I prefer a movie with vision. The Canto Bight stuff was weak. They did a terrible job with Finn. Rose is unlikable. But the Rey and Luke stuff is peak Star Wars.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 child)

    100% this it was Rian Johnson's inability to work from someone else's starting point.

    To add to your list. Finn. Johnson butchered Finn's story so much that the actor vocally said he would never take another Star Wars job.

    He was supposed to be a Luke analog. He was supposed to be force sensitive. He was supposed to confront Phasma. The first movie projected so many hints at the path many of these characters were going to take in the trilogy. There was a parallel to Finn and Rey. Finn's force awakening literally breaks his mind control and we see Kylo sense him!

    Johnson came in and burned all of those threads.

    I accepted a lot about Episode VIII, but the ruin of the Finn stuff is where it actually became unforgivable for me.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 day ago

    I put Finn (and Phasma) together with all the other threads Episode VII set up and Johnson wrote off. There were simply too many to mention each thread individually.

    But yeah, it was a travesty what Johnson did to Finns story. Considering how shafted he got it would've been a mercy kill if Finn had sacrificed himself in Episode VIII but even then Johnson needed to subvert expectations and continue ruining characters.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago (7 children)

    The ending sets up literally nothing for episode IX

    wouldn’t you say the same for A New Hope?

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  • [–] 10 points 1 day ago (6 children)

    I would, but A New Hope gets the excuse of actually being a standalone movie. A New Hope came into theaters as "Star Wars" and became Episode 4 later. Like I said, The last Jedi probably would've been an okay standalone movie. The problem is that The Last Jedi was never supposed to be a standalone movie.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago* (5 children)

    I'll accept that. In general, though, I feel like having the time jumps pull a lot of weight is core to the Star Wars movies' identity, so if there's any movie that should leave few threads loose at the end, it would be Star Wars. (Thus, I also feel there was no reason for IX to have been what it was.) I would also argue Kylo Ren being now in control of the New Order in the state of mind that he is (plus his arc with Rey) is a very loose thread with very promising potential. (Plus the ending shot seemed like foreshadowing the fate of the trilogy's end would be decided by entirely new possibilities.)

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago (4 children)

    You can have time jumps between movies but if the movie is a part of a trilogy it needs to serve the trilogy. Imagine if at the end of two towers Frodo throws the ring into the fire. What would return of the king be about? You couldn't have the return of the king because the story is resolved, the ring is gone. It would have to be a completely new u story and it wouldn't make any sense in the context of the trilogy.

    That's basically what Johnson did. He took the whole story and instead of setting up the final movie to resolve the story he resolved the story on his own and left nothing for the last movie.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago (3 children)

    All the New Order lost was the equivalent of two aircraft carriers. (Using the ancient art of calculus, 1+ \int_{TR-8R}^{some other named squadron} fighter dust = 2.) The story absolutely was not resolved. Ren in control of the Order while going insane, whatever’s up with Finn and Rose surviving, how exactly was the rebellion going to continue (they clearly were but what do they do now?), and final scene may as well had marked with big giant circles who shall be the next heroes.

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  • [–] 1 point 20 hours ago (2 children)

    Did we watch the same movie? The Order won and the rebels lost.

    The movie setting up "next heroes" is literally my point. It sets up something new with new characters instead of setting up the conclusion to the trilogy with existing characters. It doesn't set up the next movie with existing characters because their archs got concluded.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 hours ago* (1 child)

    the rebels didn’t lose either; they just lost all of their bases. they’re the rebellion, famously created by george lucas examining viet cong guerrilla tactics.

    with next heroes i was just saying the movie clearly laid out a path for a sequel to reuse threads. i mentioned about five things left untied with existing characters and the next heroes are not any one of them. Rey’s arc was just getting started.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 hours ago

    the rebels didn’t lose either; they just lost all of their bases.

    Huh, guess we have wildly different definitions of losing.

    i mentioned about five things left untied with existing characters and the next heroes are not any one of them.

    Did you? Let's count.

    1. Ren in control of the order while going insane
    2. whatever’s up with Finn and Rose surviving
    3. how exactly was the rebellion going to continue (they clearly were but what do they do now?)
    4. and final scene may as well had marked with big giant circles who shall be the next heroes.

    If we add what you now also added, Rey’s arc was just getting started, we barely get to 5. And I do have points to make here.

    Finn and Rose surviving isn't a continuation of the trilogy, their plot ended with them finding love. What comes after would have to be a new story for them. Saying that's setting up the next movie is like saying Episode 6 set up Episode 7 because "What would happen to Mon Mothma after the Battle of Endor?".

    Same with "How exactly was the rebellion going to continue". That's not setting up the last movie of the trilogy. That might as well be a starting point of a new trilogy.

    Circling out next heroes is the complete opposite of setting up the last movie of the trilogy because it sets up a whole new cast. If anything that's setting up a new trilogy.

    And Rey's arc was just getting started? Rey's entire motivation was to find out who abandoned her on Jakku and why. For the viewer there was the additional question of why she's so strong with the force. Both points got concluded in the Last Jedi with revealing that her parents abandoned her and we don't even know them because when she touches the force all she finds is herself. Her story concluded. What happens next is a new story.

    The only storyline we could entertain is Rens but that alone is not enough to set up the next movie because he's not even the main character.

    So no, it didn't really set anything up in the context of the trilogy.

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