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Skill checks (europe.pub)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/rpgmemes@ttrpg.network
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(in D&D at least)

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[–] 50 points 1 year ago (26 children)

D&D has all the money in the entire hobby, basically, and they still make terrible design decisions like this.

Rolling a nat 20 and getting a crit is the jackpot of d&d mechanics. Don't design a system where sometimes you hit the jackpot but don't win anything. That's an objectively bad choice to make.

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  • [–] 28 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I 90% agree. I think most of the opposition to this comes from people exhausted with habitual boundary-pushers who think that a nat 20 means they can get away with defying the laws of reality.

    Like, no, a nat20 persuasion does not convince the merchant to give you half his stock and all the money in the register... He would go broke and he's got a family to support, along with his own survival that your nat20 does not also convince him to stop caring about.

    But at the end of the day, a lot of GMs who are sick of that need to be sent the dictionary page for the word "no." The occasional use of it really does improve the quality of the game, and I'm sure plenty of players will appreciate not letting aforementioned boundry pushers continue to waste time on impossible pursuits that do nothing to move the game forward.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I've seen this easily solved by assuming the 20 succeedes but the DM decides how exactly.

    "Okay. The dragon loves you know. They realize you have their old lover's eyes. You remember this too. Old tales in your family that you thought were a joke. You are apparently related. And they do love you now."

    If you can't trust your players to act like adults and show some basic maturity. That's a different issue.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    This is also a great way to handle it; malicious compliance/monkey paw. Makes for some humorous moments.

    And yeah, if a player is constantly having to be told no, a talk may need to be had, and if it can't be resolved, they probably need to go. It's also a reason why Session 0's are so important; talking out what's expected of the campaign both on the part of the players and what the GM has in mind.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago*

    "No" needs to be said before the roll, IMO. Then If the player insists on doing something impossible anyway, just role-play the failure. With that said, actions that are in a narrow sense impossible can still have positive outcomes and if there's the potential for that then I'd say roll for it. The proverbial dragon seduction attempt can still possibly flatter a dragon with a big ego enough to benefit the PC even if it doesn't get the PC laid.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    You need to qualify this statement with what you believe should happen on a nat 20.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    what you believe should happen on a nat 20.

    Consistency.

    My point is that setting up the expectation of a moment of triumph and then diluting it with exceptions is going to create moments of disappointment at the table.

    If a nat 20 is going to be a big win it should always be a big win. That's so intuitively true that most people just play that way despite the rules.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Well DnD consistently doesn't have criticals outside of attack rolls and death saves.

    Like the person you replied to asked, what would you even expect to happen on an ability crit? If the DM only lets you roll on things that would be possible for you, then you would succeed on a 20 anyway. If the DM lets you roll on impossible things, then you have a 5% of doing the impossible. Neither option is good.

    I absolutely let a 20 or 1 have extra effect whenever it makes sense and feels right. But having it be a core rule would be a PITA.

    Not to mention that it would make skill checks even more driven by randomness, which is already a problem.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    what would you even expect to happen on an ability crit?

    Extra information, owed a favour, make a friend, get a small reward, get a clue to a larger reward, impress someone important, uncover a secret, get forewarning of a danger, hinder a rival, gain advantage on something, opponent is exhausted/confused/embarrassed and must pass a saving throw to act...

    Skill check crits would be just like combat crits except there's way more scope for fictional as well as mechanical benefits.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    That's still not clear what you mean, all of those things are typically the results of a success. Do you mean nat 20 should always succeed? Do you mean nat 20 should always be a success with extra benefits? Do you mean nat 20 should always give you a side benefit even if it fails? You need to be more clear.

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  • [+] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (14 children)
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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    I don't mean that it's ultra rare, just that it serves the same function as a jackpot - it's the best possible outcome, the thing you're always hoping will happen when you scratch the ticket, press the button or roll the dice.

    It's your chance to have that YOU WIN BIG moment. Setting up that mechanic and then creating situations where it doesn't apply is intentionally designing disappointment.

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  • [+] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)
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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    I disagree that 1% chance is a jackpot but 5% isn't. I'm using jackpot as an analogy for the emotional impact of a rarer, higher tier win mechanic - I don't think specifying a number is useful here. That feeling can happen with a range of different rarities.

    I'm not following your point about nat 1s, free gimmes or supply and demand.

    I think we're using very different ideas of game design. Are you using good design in the sense of like "tactically balanced"? I think of good game design as setting up and meeting player expectations for fun while minimizing frustration.

    The game sets up rolling 20 and critting as a win big moment. To occasionally then deny players that fails to meet expectations and creates disappointment. That's why I think it's bad design. And why most people don't play it as written.

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  • [+] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)
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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Elden ring absolutely does meet player expectations - challenge is the expectation of the souls-like genre.

    6 Charisma can roll a 20 and be able to convince whomever of whatever

    Certain people should never be able to make certain successes

    only as amazingly as they are capable

    I don't disagree with any of this but I'm not talking about how the win should look in the fiction.

    It's just that when you roll a crit but don't get a crit, most players will get extra disappointed. That's a fact of the human experience that no rules text will ever change.

    Good design accounts for the reality of how people actually use a thing.

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  • [+] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)
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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Disagree. People misuse stuff constantly.

    Woah wait now. Sure people misuse things but designing with that in mind always produces a better thing than ignoring reality. A gun with a safety is a objectively a better design than a gun with no safety, even if the both have a manual that says not to play with the trigger and keep away from kids.

    on them for just not reading the rules

    The game trains you to expect a dopamine reward when you roll a 20. A game that consistently meets the expectations it creates would be a better game.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    If you make like five skill checks per game, yes it is rare and it's way more fun to treat it like a crit success. It's not a job, it's a weekend activity that is supposed to bring joy.

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  • [+] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)
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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I'm not speaking to how the designers intended, but at the end of the day if a 20 is a crit success on skill checks it is a jackpot mechanic. You could go months without getting one in game and when it happens it's absolutely like hitting the jackpot

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